Hello,

Today, I gravity-bled the brake lines on my TE Magna V6 and then replaced the front brake pads. I never depressed the brake pedal as I bled the system.
I bought the car a year ago and the pedal always had a somewhat spongy feel to it.

The new fluid (PBR) is the correct type and I made sure all the old fluid was replaced by keeping an eye on the color.

To prevent damage to the ABS, I opened the bleeder valve before pushing the piston back in, and then closed it before moving the calliper back into place.

When everything was completed, I pushed the brake pedal a couple of times to move the pistons into place and was pleasantly surprised that the spongy feel had disappeared and the pedal felt very solid, indeed.

I then started the engine, and pushed the pedal again, only to find that it would now travel almost down to the floor. As I press, I can hear a whooshing sound. I carefully drove the car, and while it stops very well, when the pedal is pushed hard - it almost contacts the floor and certainly isn't confidence-inspiring. The pedal needs to travel half-way before any decent stopping power is noted.

Why has this happened? :tired: I was extremely careful to never allow the fluid in the reservoir to run low!
Could the master cylinder be faulty now? It was replaced when the car was recalled in 97.
Could driving the car like this cause damage to the master cylinder - it sounds like there is a lot of air in there somewhere.

i suggest you re-bleed the brakes ,but with a friend this time or make a vaccume bleeder.

you have air in the lines, re-bleed them with a mate

get a mate to pump the pedal, and with the foot still down, you at the wheel release pressure and watch the fluid come out. repeat until new fluid is in and is free of air

Thanks for the replies.
Do you have a clue why everything had gotten so much worse, even though the fluid level in the reservoir never fell to let air in?
This has me really stumped.

Just opening the lines up etc can potentially suck a bit in at the start etc, bleed em properly. If you check the service manual it has an order you should do it in due to the piping lengths and the fact your front left and rear right are connected as are your front right and rear left to maintain relatively straight braking in the case of a line failure. from memory it starts from left, back right, front right, rear left but it might be the other way around.

Basically to do it best you want to get a piece of hose and slip it through a ring spanner and then over the bleeder nipple and then drop the end in a small container, this stops the ability of any air to creep back in. You can also buy a 1 man bleeder thing from super cheap which has a 1 way valve in it.

Then (bleeder nipple closed) (pump pedal 5 times and hold down) (open and close bleeder nipple, fluid should fly out) - repeat at least 5 times, and at least 2 more times after the last bit of air comes out and repeat for each corer.

If you can not get a mate to assist try this, is how I bleed brakes

Get an old 600ml coke bottle, drill a hole in the top and push in an old bit of Vac hose to the bottom

Drill a small air hole near the top of the bottle also

Now, attach the other end of the hose to the bleed nipple, give 8 or so steady pumps, close the nippe and remove hose. You will not get any air back into the line this way as the end in the bottle is in the fluid

When yoe do the pads, there is no need to release the bleed nipples, the ABS system will not be damaged at all

Just opening the lines up etc can potentially suck a bit in at the start etc, bleed em properly. If you check the service manual it has an order you should do it in due to the piping lengths and the fact your front left and rear right are connected as are your front right and rear left to maintain relatively straight braking in the case of a line failure. from memory it starts from left, back right, front right, rear left but it might be the other way around.

Basically to do it best you want to get a piece of hose and slip it through a ring spanner and then over the bleeder nipple and then drop the end in a small container, this stops the ability of any air to creep back in. You can also buy a 1 man bleeder thing from super cheap which has a 1 way valve in it.

Then (bleeder nipple closed) (pump pedal 5 times and hold down) (open and close bleeder nipple, fluid should fly out) - repeat at least 5 times, and at least 2 more times after the last bit of air comes out and repeat for each corer.

Thank you.
I forgot to add that I have a service manual and did it in the correct order. I also attached a hose to direct the fluid, but did not place it inside a container. The dripping was slow but constant, so I didn't think that any air could get in - I guess I was wrong.

If you can not get a mate to assist try this, is how I bleed brakes

Get an old 600ml coke bottle, drill a hole in the top and push in an old bit of Vac hose to the bottom

Drill a small air hole near the top of the bottle also

Now, attach the other end of the hose to the bleed nipple, give 8 or so steady pumps, close the nippe and remove hose. You will not get any air back into the line this way as the end in the bottle is in the fluid

When yoe do the pads, there is no need to release the bleed nipples, the ABS system will not be damaged at all

Thank you.
I should have used a bottle to prevent air getting back in. This is what you get for doing it different. :)

A lot of muck came out, even after bleeding the system when I pushed the piston back in, so at least it's gone now.

Well, I went ahead and did it the tried and true way like TUFFTR recommended only to be rewarded with a tiny bubble at the back calliper. Everywhere else was fine.

The problem still persists and it's probably better I get someone else to bleed the lines. In the process, I ran another fresh bottle of brake fluid through, so at least everything is nice and fresh, now.

Does anyone know a good place in SA that won't charge me an arm/leg? PM me please, if you want. Thank you.

Well, I went ahead and did it the tried and true way like TUFFTR recommended only to be rewarded with a tiny bubble at the back calliper. Everywhere else was fine.

The problem still persists and it's probably better I get someone else to bleed the lines. In the process, I ran another fresh bottle of brake fluid through, so at least everything is nice and fresh, now.

Does anyone know a good place in SA that won't charge me an arm/leg? PM me please, if you want. Thank you.

Ok, something is not going right here. I've bled 20+ cars and never had this problem.
Did you end up bleeding the rear's aswell? And did you ever let the fluid get down past the low mark on the reservoir?

Only ever had this problem once, turned out to be a blocked port in the master cylinder and a leaky seal in it, so it sucked in air rather than brake fluid every time I took my foot off the brake. Not likely with your car though. Check that all thge calipers are mounted properly, pads are seated correctly, shims installed, slide pins etc are working. You may find that the pads just need bedding in, if so the pedal will get higher and harder all by itself.

;1351571']Ok, something is not going right here. I've bled 20+ cars and never had this problem.
Did you end up bleeding the rear's aswell? And did you ever let the fluid get down past the low mark on the reservoir?

I did all four, and watched the reservoir like a hawk - refilling constantly. It never even went near the low mark.

Check that all thge calipers are mounted properly, pads are seated correctly, shims installed, slide pins etc are working. You may find that the pads just need bedding in, if so the pedal will get higher and harder all by itself.

Thank you. I checked all that.
I'll drive around for a bit and post the results.

You can also buy those bleeding tubes from AutoOne or similar places, basically its a tube with a one way valve at the end that stops air getting sucked back in, the tube is also clear so you can see if any air bubbles are coming out. They cost like $10

I've never heard of gravity bleeding brakes, am I the only one? All I can picture what would happen is it would be like emptying a drink bottle, sure liquid will come out but air bubbles would go in also?

I use basically the same procedure as Mal stated to bleed them.
Once all four are bled I go around and bleed them all again, just one pump on the pedal, closing the bleed nipple with pressure applied.
That gives any residual air in the calliper time to settle at the highest point, which will be under the bleed nipple :)

You can also buy those bleeding tubes from AutoOne or similar places, basically its a tube with a one way valve at the end that stops air getting sucked back in, the tube is also clear so you can see if any air bubbles are coming out. They cost like $10

I've never heard of gravity bleeding brakes, am I the only one? All I can picture what would happen is it would be like emptying a drink bottle, sure liquid will come out but air bubbles would go in also?

i believe MadMax also bleed's his brakes like this, i tried it once and thought to myself he was pulling my leg, i takes for ever and i am too impatient ..

i believe MadMax also bleed's his brakes like this, i tried it once and thought to myself he was pulling my leg, i takes for ever and i am too impatient ..

This method works on the older non ABS cars like the Sigmas and 2.6L TS, but you are right, it is too slow and gives the air bubbles a chance to stay where they want to. lol I just use a 1m clear plastic tube a tight fit on the bleed nipple, back it off a bit and give the hose a good suck while holding the hose up high. lol You can see the air bubbles come up, when the fluid looks fresh and is clear of bubbles stop sucking (hopefully only half way up the hose), close the nipple, remove the hose, blow it out (while pointing it away from the car) and move onto the next bleed nipple. If you are careful you won't get a mouth full of fluid, but I give no guarantees. lol I've tried the tube + valve one, but it didn't work for me - after a while the valve in it stuffs up.

I always do the bleeding with the car started , the booster aids in removing air and ensures it is perfect, ive always done it this way and my balance is always even at wof checks. last time i bled an ABS car without it started, it did what you described, redone with car started and it was fine.

Were the discs surfaced or did you just put in a new set of pads on glazed up old discs? Are they quality pads?

Maybe it's not hydraulic related but lack of bite from the pads.

As previously stated , tube in bottle, one man band, very straight forward job bleeding brakes. Sounds like you did it better second time round.

No if his pedal is reaching the floor then its definitely a pressure issue, even with glazed discx he would still have good feel, just loss of braking performance, beeen there done that! lol

The problem somehow corrected itself when I took the car out for a proper drive, and the pedal went back to its original "somewhat-spongy-but-reasonably-acceptable" feel.

I'm very relieved now there wasn't anything majorly wrong.

I used Bendix Ultra Premium (ceramic technology) pads, and the front rotors are within spec and look fine. I must say, these pads are a clear upgrade to what I had before. Previously I relied on the brake specialist's judgment when selecting the brand. The Bendix pads have a lot of grip and I had to learn to apply a lot less pressure.
The only thing I don't like is that their country of manufacture is no longer stated on the pack, and as far as I know they used to be made in Australia. If they are made in China like much of everything else, they should just say it.

The brake pads on the back (unknown brand) are still near new, but they squeal and produce a lot of dust. They are probably very abrasive too, as the rear discs are very noticeably worn, but still within spec.
I'll replace them soon and bleed the system again, then - only properly this time.

Thanks for all the help!

I just bought a fresh pack of Bendix Ultra premium and the package clearly states "Made in Australia"....also bought new front DBA discs believing they are also "Made in Australia" so I hope they are. Cheap too - after the 20% off sale at SuperCheap
they only cost $171.

I just bought a fresh pack of Bendix Ultra premium and the package clearly states "Made in Australia"....also bought new front DBA discs believing they are also "Made in Australia" so I hope they are. Cheap too - after the 20% off sale at SuperCheap
they only cost $171.

I guess I'm one of the lucky first to have the pads made elsewhere (China probably) since it doesn't say "Made in Australia" on my pack anywhere. Maybe you got old stock. I'm pretty certain DBA discs are no longer made here, though.

I guess I'm one of the lucky first to have the pads made elsewhere (China probably) since it doesn't say "Made in Australia" on my pack anywhere. Maybe you got old stock. I'm pretty certain DBA discs are no longer made here, though.

I just checked their website which leads you to believe they are made in Australia. The box mine came in had a sticker with "Made in Australia" and the pad designation (DB1203UP) stuck to the lid. The website says:

"Bendix is Australia’s largest manufacturer of automotive friction materials and the only Australian company supplying friction materials for use on new cars made by Australia’s car makers. Based in Ballarat, Victoria, Bendix employs over 750 staff and utilises the latest friction manufacturing technology to make the highest quality brake friction products available in Australia today."

And regarding DBA, their site says: "Manufactures disc rotors, standard and sports rotors, slotted and cross drilled, Australian made."

So I don't know what I'm buying anymore due probably to out of date misleading websites??? Looks like the only thing we make here now is babies.

If it says "made in Auz" on the box, it probably means the box is made in Australia. The contents may not be. lol

Just put on rear evo iv/ awd brake setup. To match my front setup and have bleed the brakes but they are still way too soft and spongy. Dad and I bleeded 3 times now but still not good. Can't see anymore air comming out, even did the fronts just to be sure.
Bleed them first with engine off then again twice more with engine running. Anyone got any clues?

i had a similar situation when the apprentice bled the brakes on a TH using the sequence RL/RR/FL/FR
i rebled the system in the proper sequence of RL/FR/RR/FL and it came good.

lol ill give it a try, ive bleed my system many times in no particular order and it has allways worked fine. cant hurt to do it again

If safe to, take for a drive, if the rear pads are not sitting flush on the rotor may be a case of the pads are pushing back too far

Have rebleed in the correct order
I took it for a drive and still not very good, however they are slightly better than before.

If safe to, take for a drive, if the rear pads are not sitting flush on the rotor may be a case of the pads are pushing back too far
how does this make for a soft pedal?

before they were installed I pulled the calipers off and apart to replace seals and for sandblast/paint.
as far as i know i put them back together correctly. i cant see fluid leaking that would result in a hydraulic pressure loss.

before they were installed I pulled the calipers off and apart to replace seals and for sandblast/paint.
as far as i know i put them back together correctly. i cant see fluid leaking that would result in a hydraulic pressure loss.

Was the master cylinder kept full of fluid during all operations? - if not, there may still be residual air trapped in the master cylinder which gets sucked back to the MC when you release the pedal as there is no one-way valve on the MC. Refer to the workshop manual re MC bleeding.

i didn't think that the level dropped that far, but i guess its a possibility. ill give it a try tomorrow, see how I go.
edit: been reading up on master cylinder bleeding from the mitsubishi and haynes manual. basically it says to disconnect the outlet lines, depress the brake pedal, place fingers over the ports, and pump the brake pedal to fill the master cylinder.
but when i take my fingers off the ports to reconnect the lines again, wont air get back into the cylinder again?
and i know that the lines would need to be rebleed again.

anyone done this before?

I think what the manual(s) refer to is called "bench bleeding" of the master cylinder, and is usually done when a new or reco MC is fitted - bleeding the MC this way avoids having to pump any trapped air along the brake lines with the real possibility that one pump at a time (when bleeding) will not force the air from the MC and to the most distant brake bleeder. The manual say that the MC does not have a one way valve fitted so I'd guess that when you take your foot off the brake pedal during bleeding, some of the fluid you are forcing along the line will return to the MC...along with the air. So if you can rid the MC of air before attaching it to the lines you should have no air......you will note that when you do this "bench bleed" procedure, fluid will cover the outlet holes in the MC and probably prevent and air going back up into the MC. It should be similar for the lines as long as they face upwards and are full of fluid before screwing to the MC.
Please note that the procedure I've outlined above is something I've done on numerous cars over the years and generally the brakes will require no bleeding at all as long as it's only the MC that's being replaced. It's not usual for the MC to introduce air to the lines (in my experience) even when the piston seals are leaking badly...probably due to the fluid reservoir located above the MC. Google "bench bleeding" and you'll see how common it is.

thats what the haynes manual talks about. the mitsubishi one has a pic of it still in the car.
my issue is once the MC is bled and has no air in it. i cant see how air will just get back in, thru the ports when i take my finger off and attach the lines again, doing all that MC bleeding i just did.

if i push the caliper pistons back in, would that force any air that is in the MC back out and essentially bubble out of the resivour of fluid?

thats what the haynes manual talks about. the mitsubishi one has a pic of it still in the car.
my issue is once the MC is bled and has no air in it. i cant see how air will just get back in, thru the ports when i take my finger off and attach the lines again, doing all that MC bleeding i just did.

if i push the caliper pistons back in, would that force any air that is in the MC back out and essentially bubble out of the resivour of fluid?

I'm only guessing, so please don't flame me if I'm wrong....if you bled the MC on the car as per the book, when you finished your 3 or more pumps to expel any air, you would top up the MC reservoir whilst fingers are covering ports, then release fingers one at a time and reattach lines. Gravity will cause fluid out of the ports from the full reservoir and this should prevent air travelling back into the port and the MC....I think the viscosity of the brake fluid would also tend to stop the backflow of air. Pushing the caliper pistons back in 'may' force the air back into the reservoir but I've never seen that done but may work. You may then end up with fluid which has air trapped in it - which is why you should not reuse the brake fluid used in bleeding. I'd like a better pedal as well....haven't bled them yet as so many people complain of soft brakes that it may be normal.
This is a good article on bleeding: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_bleeding

Might be way off track but ive had a similar situation before,

I've had a spongy pedal with a swooshing sound when depressed (as mentioned somewhere in this thread) when the master cylinder was leaking, couldn't tell because most of the leaking fluid was just being collected in the booster and a little was running down the firewall and back under the car. when I pulled it apart the booster was half full. Replaced booster and had a kit put through MC, then bled and all good.

Good luck anyway.