Hay all

Just fitted my ECU i recieved from SKR today the cars feels so good its rev limiter has been raised aswell to 7200rpms. Is this ok? Aswell the added limiter definatly makes the car feel faster just goes hard in the higher revs really happy.

Kurt

Hmmm, OK I'm envious and think I want an SKR tune too - so it was a postal tune? Is it designed for any mods or still stock engine?

Now you have to do another 1/4 mile run and see if or how much quicker it is!

That sounds good. Think i need to do this to the ralliart. Just need to decide if i want lumpier cams or not first....

I thought the stock cams on the non-Ralliart models ran out of puff about the 5-5.5k rpm mark. Increasing the rev limiter wouldn't really achieve much then would it?

I think it was the tune, not the rev limiter increase that changed the way the car revs. Also on a Ralliart it still has a drop at 5500, it's just not as bad. haha

7200 probably is probably starting to valve bounce, actually, about 500rpm sooner is. the car would be making sfa power up that high to. i also hope there is shit loads of fuel being dumped in after 6 as well.

Talked to steve night at SKR. He said to me thats wat they did with all the race magnas that wanted the most possible gain. it feels amazing and he said yes the engine can handle the rev limiter increase just dont sit it up there all day so yeah really happy. Yes this was a postal tune for 98octane fuel. No 1/4 mile done yet but will definalty be a quicker time then my PB.

After all that must of just been a feeling swapped old ecu back car runs basically the same no gain in performance ill have to give steve a call see wat the go is?

Wait so you put an old untuned ecu back in and it's exactly the same? What about all that stuff you were saying about how good it was =\

Is there even a change in fuel consumption at least? Very interested in SKRs explanation.

even if it did have the increase (about a max of 10kw atw) its the same as driving with the ac on. really not that noticeable anyway. i believe that more than most of the "difference" felt from tunes like these is a placebo effect. though some might say 10kw make the car hugely different. and before anyone starts carrying on with "i got 13kw from an skr tune" just dont, 10kw about is the average, from what i have read on these forums (and a very generous one at that).

I'd like to share an anecdote from a friend, which I find to be applicable in general in life.
He wouldn't upgrade a computer component unless it would yield a 10% or more measurable increase in performance somewhere. Anything less than 10% just wasn't noticeable enough, but 10%+ made a difference that you could appreciate.

I think cars are similar and I apply the same rule - unless I increase power by 10%, I'm probably not going to notice it.
That means 16kW ATF or ~ 11kW ATW .
So if an SKR postal tune ECU can add 10kW from standard, then IMO it might just be butt dyno detectable.

So Kurt, how long does it take to swap the ECU over? Is this something you can test at the drag strip? Back to back runs with the same car on the same night with 2 different ECUs could be a very enlightening experiment :)

Oggy thats all well and good but because a hi-flow cat only gives me 1kw increase doesn't mean i won't do it. because after lots of little increases and a tune you are looking at just say 30kwatw. Then that is a big increase.

I'd like to share an anecdote from a friend, which I find to be applicable in general in life.
He wouldn't upgrade a computer component unless it would yield a 10% or more measurable increase in performance somewhere. Anything less than 10% just wasn't noticeable enough, but 10%+ made a difference that you could appreciate.

I think cars are similar and I apply the same rule - unless I increase power by 10%, I'm probably not going to notice it.
That means 16kW ATF or ~ 11kW ATW .
So if an SKR postal tune ECU can add 10kW from standard, then IMO it might just be butt dyno detectable.

So Kurt, how long does it take to swap the ECU over? Is this something you can test at the drag strip? Back to back runs with the same car on the same night with 2 different ECUs could be a very enlightening experiment :)

The ecu is easy to swap over. Definatly achieaveable to swap ecus at willowbank.

Wait so you put an old untuned ecu back in and it's exactly the same? What about all that stuff you were saying about how good it was =\

Is there even a change in fuel consumption at least? Very interested in SKRs explanation.

Its exctly the same i reckon mabey the SKR tunned ecu is .1 second quicker or less cant feel the difference now that ive swapped both ecus and drived with both. Called steve he told me to go to a dyno get the air fuel ratio. Test the cars power then do another dyno run with added octane booster see if the power increases if the power increases then he cant put anymore spark into the tune if it stays the same power with the added octane booster he can put more spark in my tune for more power so im gonna do this test on thursday see how it goes.

I thought the stock cams on the non-Ralliart models ran out of puff about the 5-5.5k rpm mark. Increasing the rev limiter wouldn't really achieve much then would it?

That's very true I reckon. However after removing the rev limiter on my TE 3.0l it revs so easy to 7500rpm. It just revs so fast and then when I reach for the next gear change it's already high in the power band. This could also have something to do with the lightened flywheel that I've been running in combination with the 3.0l which we all know loves to rev. As of this week my TE will be running a 3.5l motor with lightened flywheel and 380 cams, I can't wait to see how it pulls!

In reply to the first post, yes revving it that high seems fine to me, then again I didn't care that much at the time because I had a spare motor on hand. I did some pretty hard starts the night that I had no restrictions :P


Its exctly the same i reckon mabey the SKR tunned ecu is .1 second quicker or less cant feel the difference now that ive swapped both ecus and drived with both. Called steve he told me to go to a dyno get the air fuel ratio. Test the cars power then do another dyno run with added octane booster see if the power increases if the power increases then he cant put anymore spark into the tune if it stays the same power with the added octane booster he can put more spark in my tune for more power so im gonna do this test on thursday see how it goes.

I don't think 98ron on it's own would be noticeable. I went straight from a 3.0 ecu trying to determine the current fuel/air mixture to a TJ ecu that had been flashed for 98ron which felt awesome. Then Steve dyno tuned it and it was even better. For me it was the torque increase which was good. If you're able to tell Steve what mods you have he'll be able to edit the fuel maps and add a bit more fuel in for load/revs.

That being said, you'll only get a noticeable power increase when you've done more mods to your car. Eg: A standard car flashed for 98ron you might not notice much at all. A car with a high flow cat, cams, exhaust, you'll notice a big improvement after a 98ron flash and tune.

The biggest difference I found with my SKR tune was that I could drive along at 50 in 5th without it struggling, i.e. it was a bit torquier down low.

It was only about a 12kW gain so you wouldn't expect to notice that much, really.


Would be more useful where you had changed cams, changed intake/exhaust considerably, and done other mods where the factory tune is no longer giving you optimum. The factory tune for a mostly factory setup is honestly quite good.

So Kurt, how long does it take to swap the ECU over? Is this something you can test at the drag strip? Back to back runs with the same car on the same night with 2 different ECUs could be a very enlightening experiment :)

even thats not gonna do anything. Driver error would be more than the increase in power. Like look at drag runs you have done, there would be 1 second difference between runs without changing anything

You expect a huge gain from a simple ECU re-flash? If you want power, Spend the money. That's all there is to it.

Its exctly the same i reckon mabey the SKR tunned ecu is .1 second quicker or less cant feel the difference now that ive swapped both ecus and drived with both. Called steve he told me to go to a dyno get the air fuel ratio. Test the cars power then do another dyno run with added octane booster see if the power increases if the power increases then he cant put anymore spark into the tune if it stays the same power with the added octane booster he can put more spark in my tune for more power so im gonna do this test on thursday see how it goes.

So, hang on. Steve Knight wants you to go and, 1) Buy Octane Booster ($25), 2) Rent dyno for no less than 2 power runs ($160 depending on dyno operator) = $200 roughly. So, $200 so you can see if a Magna gets more power out of higher octane fuel.

Steve Knight is either pulling your leg and is a practical joker, or... :bowrofl:

for all those saying that a 6g7x motor pulls hard after 6000 they are silly. the motor begins to die at 5200 and is pretty incapacitated at 6200, without some pretty hefty mods most importantly valve springs and really good cams. you will be making making sfa power, and really just damaging the motor, if you wanna go fast, change at 5800 with the possible acception of 1st. takes a couple tenths of a second off your 1/4 mile time. if you are crossing the line in 3rd gear in a magna, you are driving wrong imho. and it is a joke him asking you to put it on a dyno.
a;so kurt btw, is it a 6g72 or 74 motor?

for all those saying that a 6g7x motor pulls hard after 6000 they are silly. the motor begins to die at 5200 and is pretty incapacitated at 6200, without some pretty hefty mods most importantly valve springs and really good cams. you will be making making sfa power, and really just damaging the motor, if you wanna go fast, change at 5800 with the possible acception of 1st. takes a couple tenths of a second off your 1/4 mile time. if you are crossing the line in 3rd gear in a magna, you are driving wrong imho. and it is a joke him asking you to put it on a dyno.
a;so kurt btw, is it a 6g72 or 74 motor?

Yeah i just wont the obvious most possible gain out of this tune thats all. Yes its a 74 engine from idle to 6rpm theres increasing power but from 6 to 72rpm is a flat power band.

Yeah i just wont the obvious most possible gain out of this tune thats all. Yes its a 74 engine from idle to 6rpm theres increasing power but from 6 to 72rpm is a flat power band.

No it isn't. Put it on a dyno and I guarantee the power drops dramatically after 5,500rpm.

As someone who has never taken a 6G72 12 valve or 6G74 24 valve over 4,000 rpm I think . . . . . . you are being a bit silly! lol

Easiest way to make an engine old before its time is to rev the bejezus out of it.

Kurt, what is your tally of engines, diffs, clutches and gearboxes so far?

Enough said.

As someone who has never taken a 6G72 12 valve or 6G74 24 valve over 4,000 rpm I think . . . . . . you are being a bit silly! lol

Easiest way to make an engine old before its time is to rev the bejezus out of it.

Kurt, what is your tally of engines, diffs, clutches and gearboxes so far?

Enough said.

the magna makes most power at about 4500, then it drops off. the torque helps it get there but the biggest kick in the pants is from 4-5k, then its a massive drop at 5.5k, i could only imagine the sound of the poor engine at 6-7.2k in third gear, it would take ages to climb that last 1200 rpm, really would be painfull, because i know down the quater when i hold mine in 3rd it is slower and it is painfull. also most of the time it bounces of the limiter for the last half second, and that is regeistering at 6500rpm. only done it 3 times out of all the runs i have ever done

A shift from 3rd to 4th is also pretty quick, like the easiest shift and usually the smoothest. I would be shifting into 4th at about 5700 in a magna, definately no later. its pointless

So back to the tune. Was this tune done on a stock standard engine with no cams or exhaust?

my reflash made a world of difference.. mind you i had the boost raised to 18psi and afm cleaned up and no idea what else... haha

matt i still have this ecu here if you want it? you should try and contact merlin(dave) and see if is interested in flashing magna ecu's.. his flashes vr4/evos and is a absolute god at them...

So back to the tune. Was this tune done on a stock standard engine with no cams or exhaust?

Yeah back to the tune. My cars got full exhaust including high flow cat and extractors ralliart cams and cai. Its not stock but not worked.

So, hang on. Steve Knight wants you to go and, 1) Buy Octane Booster ($25), 2) Rent dyno for no less than 2 power runs ($160 depending on dyno operator) = $200 roughly. So, $200 so you can see if a Magna gets more power out of higher octane fuel.

Steve Knight is either pulling your leg and is a practical joker, or... :bowrofl:

Still mate will work out alot cheaper then any other custom tune $1300 to $1500 max for a unichip or other chips. Steve quoted me $250 for the postal tune another $250 to get it all checked out at a dyno and steve tune it again better for free. U do the math?

Guys,

Please keep this thread on topic. I have cleaned up the thread due to posts not being related to the OP.

Cheers
Braedz

Still mate will work out alot cheaper then any other custom tune $1300 to $1500 max for a unichip or other chips. Steve quoted me $250 for the postal tune another $250 to get it all checked out at a dyno and steve tune it again better for free. U do the math?

Why am I doing math? It's a strong subject for me, (lol) but still... Nothing was said about cost or math.

I'll put it simpler for you. Since when did different octane fuel make any difference in a Magna? It doesn't because 3rd gen Magna's do not have a knock sensor. So why then is Steve Knight telling you to put octane booster in your fuel tank then do dyno runs???

I'll put it simpler for you. Since when did different octane fuel make any difference in a Magna? It doesn't because 3rd gen Magna's do not have a knock sensor. So why then is Steve Knight telling you to put octane booster in your fuel tank then do dyno runs???

Since Steve added extra spark to the tune, it now benefits from higher octane fuel. You really don't know a lot about ECU's are tuning do you... :nuts: :gtfo:


Yes this was a postal tune for 98octane fuel.

98 octane tune = advanced timing.

Since Steve added extra spark to the tune, it now benefits from higher octane fuel. You really don't know a lot about ECU's are tuning do you... :nuts: :gtfo:



98 octane tune = advanced timing.

lmfao, neo = fail. you realise that the only reason you need to run high octane fuel is to stop pre ignition right? he tunes the car for 98, so he can advance the timing and lean out the mixture, so the only fuel it willl run properly on is 98. the only reason adding octanes booster to the fuel would make it better, would be if he has balls'ed up and it is pinging. so again, it is tuned for 98, if you put octane booster in that, there would be no difference what so ever

a 3rd gen magna cannot tell the difference between 91 - 98 so it doesnt make a difference, as long as it isnt pre igniting. a car with a knock sensor can adjust the timing to get the best gain out of the fuel, ie it senses how much it can advance the timing before it pings, and it stays there

and adding extra spark? wtf is that, did he telll you that?

lmfao, neo = fail. you realise that the only reason you need to run high octane fuel is to stop pre ignition right? he tunes the car for 98, so he can advance the timing and lean out the mixture, so the only fuel it willl run properly on is 98. the only reason adding octanes booster to the fuel would make it better, would be if he has balls'ed up and it is pinging. so again, it is tuned for 98, if you put octane booster in that, there would be no difference what so ever

a 3rd gen magna cannot tell the difference between 91 - 98 so it doesnt make a difference, as long as it isnt pre igniting. a car with a knock sensor can adjust the timing to get the best gain out of the fuel, ie it senses how much it can advance the timing before it pings, and it stays there

and adding extra spark? wtf is that, did he telll you that?

lol - preaching to the choir again I see :P

Adding extra spark is a term used by tuners that means that advance the timing of the ignition :)

Steve was most likely saying add octane booster to his current fuel to get the octane level up to what the ECU is tuned for now. Derrr

lol - preaching to the choir again I see :P

Adding extra spark is a term used by tuners that means that advance the timing of the ignition :)

Steve was most likely saying add octane booster to his current fuel to get the octane level up to what the ECU is tuned for now. Derrr
so when he says its tuned for 98, and someone puts 98 in it, its not good enough, thats all good and its meant to work like that?

and what is preaching to the choir again supposed to mean? you were way off the mark, then tell someone who knows a bit that they know nothing? you realise that preaching to the choir means telling someone something they already know, but you obviously dont. lol
anyway put it on a dyno and you may find you have gained and extra 10kw. if you cant tell the difference, will it be worth the 500 dollars though?

Does anyone know why 10kw is usually the max that they can get out of these cars? 10% seems pretty low.

Is there anything else that can be done (fuel pump?) that can mean the stock ECU can get leaned on a bit more to get say a 20% increase in power??

so when he says its tuned for 98, and someone puts 98 in it, its not good enough, thats all good and its meant to work like that?

Please read kurt's comments before posting useless stuff. He said he got a postal tune, meaning he probably didn't have 98octane in the car when he put the new ECU in. Because we know that 3rd gens don't have a knock sensor, therefore having 98ron in a car that is untuned does nothing. Hence, preaching to the choir.


and what is preaching to the choir again supposed to mean? you were way off the mark, then tell someone who knows a bit that they know nothing? you realise that preaching to the choir means telling someone something they already know, but you obviously dont. lol

Please read the above, then re-read it, and again...


anyway put it on a dyno and you may find you have gained and extra 10kw. if you cant tell the difference, will it be worth the 500 dollars though?

Again, please read kurt's comments. He's done a few mods on the car already. He will get a bit more than 10kw because of the mods he's done, a tune compliments the mods you've already done to your car. If he told Steve this, Steve knows off the back of his hand how much extra fuel to add into the fuel map per rpm/load.

so when he says its tuned for 98, and someone puts 98 in it, its not good enough, thats all good and its meant to work like that?

and what is preaching to the choir again supposed to mean? you were way off the mark, then tell someone who knows a bit that they know nothing? you realise that preaching to the choir means telling someone something they already know, but you obviously dont. lol
anyway put it on a dyno and you may find you have gained and extra 10kw. if you cant tell the difference, will it be worth the 500 dollars though?

The ECU is tuned for 98, correct. However the OP may not have a 100% 98 sitting in the tank. The OP did not say how he cycled his tank to make it as near as possible to 98. Remeber that the tank does not go empty so if the OP was running on 91 then there will be 91 left in the tank. Hence the need for the booster. What the OP should have done is run the car at 98 for a few months and then install the tuned ECU.

so when he says its tuned for 98, and someone puts 98 in it, its not good enough, thats all good and its meant to work like that?

and what is preaching to the choir again supposed to mean? you were way off the mark, then tell someone who knows a bit that they know nothing? you realise that preaching to the choir means telling someone something they already know, but you obviously dont. lol
anyway put it on a dyno and you may find you have gained and extra 10kw. if you cant tell the difference, will it be worth the 500 dollars though?

Because it was a mail tune he probably went a little conservative with the advancing of the timing thats why there could be abit more advance timing to be made thats why he told me to do this. He cant go all out on mail tunes because every engine is different.

Why am I doing math? It's a strong subject for me, (lol) but still... Nothing was said about cost or math.

I'll put it simpler for you. Since when did different octane fuel make any difference in a Magna? It doesn't because 3rd gen Magna's do not have a knock sensor. So why then is Steve Knight telling you to put octane booster in your fuel tank then do dyno runs???

Well u were basically saying it was a joke and waste of money. Theres obvious gains in advancing the timing in magnas. Read my bellow comment to beltro.?

Please read kurt's comments before posting useless stuff. He said he got a postal tune, meaning he probably didn't have 98octane in the car when he put the new ECU in. Because we know that 3rd gens don't have a knock sensor, therefore having 98ron in a car that is untuned does nothing. Hence, preaching to the choir.



Please read the above, then re-read it, and again...



Again, please read kurt's comments. He's done a few mods on the car already. He will get a bit more than 10kw because of the mods he's done, a tune compliments the mods you've already done to your car. If he told Steve this, Steve knows off the back of his hand how much extra fuel to add into the fuel map per rpm/load.

Well said man, clearly people dont read OPs comments before posting useless crap

useless? unless the car is pre igniting THERE WILL BE NO GAIN FROM PUTTING HIGHER OCTANE FUEL IN. its obvious that everyone is sitting on the i love skr bandwagon because they have spent 500 big ones on 10kw, nothing wrong with that, but it doesnt mean that you can post useless shit to justify the expense. im not dissing skr btw, so lets just make that clear.

it cannot be put any simpler than that. so kurt is you car preigniting when you are revving it to 7200rmp? my guess is no because he is not silly, and the thread would be called, tune installed, now my motor is making a terrible pinging sound. as this is the case, there will be no advantage to adding a higher octane fuel.
and for the people saying read ops original post, it is now irrelevant you fools. it went from "zomfg this is a sick tune that makes heaps better power" to, "hang on, there is no noticable difference in power" so we are reading that post now. then he was told to add octane booster.

now, as said to all you "experts" like neo that knows everything about tuning cars, if the car is not pre igniting, there is no basis for the theory that adding octane booster will increase power. none. nothing. if the car is running properly and not preigniting, it is making the most power it can.

remember, its not the fuel that gives the car extra power, it is the tune that does. the fuel only allows the tune to be run that way.

The AMC Forum is a medium for discussing various points. We don not encourage our members to stop posting.
Anybody not understanding, we encourage them to ask questions. We welcome everyone posting their points.
This is what the essence of debating is about.

I too would like to see a healthy outcome to this discussion.
This is an interesting topic, people on both sides have posted some interesting points.

Thank You for your co-operation. Carry On.

Brain asplosion!

I just wanna know whether SKR tunes are full of scheiße or not lol
I know how Disciple feels about the subject, especially about the Dyno he has.
Would love to know if your postal tune actually gave you what was promised.

useless? unless the car is pre igniting THERE WILL BE NO GAIN FROM PUTTING HIGHER OCTANE FUEL IN. its obvious that everyone is sitting on the i love skr bandwagon because they have spent 500 big ones on 10kw, nothing wrong with that, but it doesnt mean that you can post useless shit to justify the expense. im not dissing skr btw, so lets just make that clear.

There's no way that either you or I can tell if the car has been pinging or not, the driver might not even know it's pinging if he doesn't know what he's listening to. His exhaust might even be to loud to hear anything.. you or I don't know this :nuts:

Since when did Kurt say his postal tune was $500?? I read $250 for the postal tune.. $250 extra would be for dyno tuning. Please read Kurt's posts again maybe :P


now, as said to all you "experts" like neo that knows everything about tuning cars, if the car is not pre igniting, there is no basis for the theory that adding octane booster will increase power. none. nothing. if the car is running properly and not preigniting, it is making the most power it can.

I never said I was an expert, I came in with my opinion on the matter, take it or leave it.


remember, its not the fuel that gives the car extra power, it is the tune that does. the fuel only allows the tune to be run that way.

That is true, so why on earth are you and Disiple saying that 98 octane fuel makes no difference at all earlier in the thread whilst taking into consideration that the ECU has been tuned? Yes everyone knows that the 3rd gens don't have a knock sensor, but advancing the timing in the ECU does give benefits when used with higher octane fuel. And if Kurt didn't have high octane fuel in his tank, Steve was most likely saying to boost his current tank of fuel (as some of the other sensible users on here concluded as well).

Blahhhh, this is all going off topic now

I might not be right here, but wouldn't a fair indication of whether the tune is real to compare the fuel economy while running a 98RON on the stock ECU vs running 98RON on the tuned ECU?

If the tuned ECU gives you a drop of like 2l per 100ks wouldn't it be fair to say the tune is legit?

Carry on? OK. :)


In my mind, Kurt & Neo are doing OK here, and the "preaching to the choir" statement is simply because someone is saying the same thing in different words And then not even realising it! :)



Its exctly the same i reckon mabey the SKR tunned ecu is .1 second quicker or less cant feel the difference now that ive swapped both ecus and drived with both. Called steve he told me to go to a dyno get the air fuel ratio. Test the cars power then do another dyno run with added octane booster see if the power increases if the power increases then he cant put anymore spark into the tune if it stays the same power with the added octane booster he can put more spark in my tune for more power so im gonna do this test on thursday see how it goes.


From what Kurt typed above and my understanding of fuel octane - if the Octane Booster is able to produce more power, then this "Tune" is too aggressive on the timing.
Now I would assume that SKR is not going to blow someones engine on a postal tune, so this "too aggressive" must only be a minor and safe thing, ie: before pinging happens, and that it would be normal for SKR to tune to the edge like this.
If Octane Booster makes no difference to power, then we know that the ignition timing is not aggressive enough to reach this "edge" so timing could be advanced more.


I think that Bellto needs to THINK what and how (s?)he is typing (before it is typed) because I can only read those words in 2 ways - "1. skr's actions on this are b.s." or "2. Kurt is lying".
And Disciple, yes, we all (should) know that 3rd gen's don't have a knock sensor so can't benefit from Octane Booster - unless someone has changed the ignition timing with an ECU reflash.
So now the plan is to use a dyno and a bottle of octane booster and they can act as a pseudo knock sensor as already described.

Keep your chin up Kurt - it sounds like you're doing OK to me.

useless? unless the car is pre igniting THERE WILL BE NO GAIN FROM PUTTING HIGHER OCTANE FUEL IN. its obvious that everyone is sitting on the i love skr bandwagon because they have spent 500 big ones on 10kw, nothing wrong with that, but it doesnt mean that you can post useless shit to justify the expense. im not dissing skr btw, so lets just make that clear.

it cannot be put any simpler than that. so kurt is you car preigniting when you are revving it to 7200rmp? my guess is no because he is not silly, and the thread would be called, tune installed, now my motor is making a terrible pinging sound. as this is the case, there will be no advantage to adding a higher octane fuel.
and for the people saying read ops original post, it is now irrelevant you fools. it went from "zomfg this is a sick tune that makes heaps better power" to, "hang on, there is no noticable difference in power" so we are reading that post now. then he was told to add octane booster.

now, as said to all you "experts" like neo that knows everything about tuning cars, if the car is not pre igniting, there is no basis for the theory that adding octane booster will increase power. none. nothing. if the car is running properly and not preigniting, it is making the most power it can.

remember, its not the fuel that gives the car extra power, it is the tune that does. the fuel only allows the tune to be run that way.

With all your "expertise" you seemed to be confusing preignition & detonation. FYI knocking refers to detonation. Advancing timing WILL not cause pre ignition nor using low octane fuel. (until ofrourse detonation causes metal elements to heat up too much, but by that time you would have cracked you piston anyhow)

Perhaps Wikipedia can help you out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_knocking

Carry on? OK. :)


In my mind, Kurt & Neo are doing OK here, and the "preaching to the choir" statement is simply because someone is saying the same thing in different words And then not even realising it! :)





From what Kurt typed above and my understanding of fuel octane - if the Octane Booster is able to produce more power, then this "Tune" is too aggressive on the timing.
Now I would assume that SKR is not going to blow someones engine on a postal tune, so this "too aggressive" must only be a minor and safe thing, ie: before pinging happens, and that it would be normal for SKR to tune to the edge like this.
If Octane Booster makes no difference to power, then we know that the ignition timing is not aggressive enough to reach this "edge" so timing could be advanced more.


I think that Bellto needs to THINK what and how (s?)he is typing (before it is typed) because I can only read those words in 2 ways - "1. skr's actions on this are b.s." or "2. Kurt is lying".
And Disciple, yes, we all (should) know that 3rd gen's don't have a knock sensor so can't benefit from Octane Booster - unless someone has changed the ignition timing with an ECU reflash.
So now the plan is to use a dyno and a bottle of octane booster and they can act as a pseudo knock sensor as already described.

Keep your chin up Kurt - it sounds like you're doing OK to me.


So, the tune has been tuned too high for standard 98 RON petrol to cope, so Kurt needs to add octane booster to see if it makes any difference to the tune? But isn't the problem Kurt describing that the car is making no noticeable power increase? So the tune is too low, not too high? Or are you saying that by adding octane booster and the car is still the same, then the tune can be increased? But isn't that a bit silly when 98 RON makes no difference? So how is 100 RON going to make a difference if 98 RON doesn't?

I'm really confused.

What I see is:

Kurt gets tune done on stock ECU.
Kurt puts tuned ECU in car.
Kurt raves about how much extra power the car makes and how great it feels above 6,000rpm all the way to the 7,200rpm redline.
Kurt then takes tuned ECU out and replaces it with a standard ECU.
Kurt notices no difference at all.
Kurt rings Steve Knight who tells him to run octane booster and do back to back dyno runs.

So, say Kurt puts the car on the dyno, and for arguments sake it makes 140kwatw. Then he puts octane booster in it, tell me again how it's going to make more power? The only explanation I can think of is that the car doesn't already have 98 RON petrol in it, and so it's not working at it's full potential. If that's the case, the car would be running like shit and Kurt would be a pretty silly boy for doing so. So I think we need some clarification there from Kurt.

The only explanation I can think of is that the car doesn't already have 98 RON petrol in it, and so it's not working at it's full potential. If that's the case, the car would be running like shit and Kurt would be a pretty silly boy for doing so. So I think we need some clarification there from Kurt.

Yes precisely, i think thats why he was told to use octane booster, or am i wrong?

The only explanation I can think of is that the car doesn't already have 98 RON petrol in it, and so it's not working at it's full potential. If that's the case, the car would be running like shit and Kurt would be a pretty silly boy for doing so. So I think we need some clarification there from Kurt.

Yes precisely, i think thats why he was told to use octane booster, or am i wrong?

Personally, I think the gains are there. Just have a couple of dyno runs with each ecu already.

Seat of your pants dyno doesn't really count...

So, the tune has been tuned too high for standard 98 RON petrol to cope, so Kurt needs to add octane booster to see if it makes any difference to the tune? But isn't the problem Kurt describing that the car is making no noticeable power increase? So the tune is too low, not too high? Or are you saying that by adding octane booster and the car is still the same, then the tune can be increased? But isn't that a bit silly when 98 RON makes no difference? So how is 100 RON going to make a difference if 98 RON doesn't?

I'm really confused.

What I see is:

Kurt gets tune done on stock ECU.
Kurt puts tuned ECU in car.
Kurt raves about how much extra power the car makes and how great it feels above 6,000rpm all the way to the 7,200rpm redline.
Kurt then takes tuned ECU out and replaces it with a standard ECU.
Kurt notices no difference at all.
Kurt rings Steve Knight who tells him to run octane booster and do back to back dyno runs.

So, say Kurt puts the car on the dyno, and for arguments sake it makes 140kwatw. Then he puts octane booster in it, tell me again how it's going to make more power? The only explanation I can think of is that the car doesn't already have 98 RON petrol in it, and so it's not working at it's full potential. If that's the case, the car would be running like shit and Kurt would be a pretty silly boy for doing so. So I think we need some clarification there from Kurt.

Did you not read what I posted. His tank may not have 100% 98ron fuel. I pressume he was using 91 all along and then decided to fill it up with 98 before installing the new ECU. I think it is time for Kurt to come clean on his fueling.

Personally, I think the gains are there. Just have a couple of dyno runs with each ecu already.

Seat of your pants dyno doesn't really count...

This.

Then to the drag strip, 2 or 3 runs with each ECU (for consistency)

Did you not read what I posted. His tank may not have 100% 98ron fuel. I pressume he was using 91 all along and then decided to fill it up with 98 before installing the new ECU. I think it is time for Kurt to come clean on his fueling.

Yeah, I did read what you said mate. It's all well and good to assume, but we'll wait for Kurt to reply.

I might not be right here, but wouldn't a fair indication of whether the tune is real to compare the fuel economy while running a 98RON on the stock ECU vs running 98RON on the tuned ECU?

If the tuned ECU gives you a drop of like 2l per 100ks wouldn't it be fair to say the tune is legit?

I'd recommend this first seeing as it's the cheapest/easiest test.

If there's little to no difference then SKR didn't tune shit, only logical explanation amirite?

No point even getting on the dyno or lining the car up at the drags before this is done IMO.

I'd recommend this first seeing as it's the cheapest/easiest test.

If there's little to no difference then SKR didn't tune shit, only logical explanation amirite?

No point even getting on the dyno or lining the car up at the drags before this is done IMO.

A fuel consumption comparison test is pretty unreliable unless it's done in a controlled environment or on the same roads, at the same time of day, with the same conditions, the same amount of traffic, the same driving style, etc etc. It's a decent idea, but just cruising on the highway at 110km/h in 5th you're not going to notice any difference in fuel economy. The difference is usually in the mid range where most standard tunes are really rich. At least, that was the case when I had my Ralliart tuned. The tuner took heaps of fuel out of it after 4,000rpm which meant when I drove it spiritedly, it didn't really effect fuel economy that much.

In reality the most reliable test would be the dyno of course, it would be good to see AFRs, power curve & peak power diff.

For those that have done the SKR tune, does SKR provide a before and after report of the ECU maps?

A fuel consumption comparison test is pretty unreliable unless it's done in a controlled environment or on the same roads, at the same time of day, with the same conditions, the same amount of traffic, the same driving style, etc etc. It's a decent idea, but just cruising on the highway at 110km/h in 5th you're not going to notice any difference in fuel economy. The difference is usually in the mid range where most standard tunes are really rich. At least, that was the case when I had my Ralliart tuned. The tuner took heaps of fuel out of it after 4,000rpm which meant when I drove it spiritedly, it didn't really effect fuel economy that much.

Interesting. Didn't know tuning would mean you can thrash it without it changing the fuel economy that much. Thought it was just an "across the board" kind of thing.

My 2cents worth.

Having an SKR tune is not like putting on a supercharger. It gives you a little more up and go but most noticable as people have said is the extra low down torque.
$500 really for a dyno tune really is good value for money especially with Magna's as power increasing mods are so limited and expensive.
Bang for your buck is not bad at all.
My experience with hi flow cats having an AWD and changing the stock cat to a hi flow 200cpi cat made absolutely no noticable difference other than a horrible buzzing noise from the exhaust note. Now thats not good Bang for your buck.
So much so that after spending many thousands of dollars and countless hours of my time trying to get a decent AWD note, i am going back to a stock cat and mid section, but leaving HM headers and genuine sports muffler at the back.
This in my opinion will give the best note for an AWD.

Interesting. Didn't know tuning would mean you can thrash it without it changing the fuel economy that much. Thought it was just an "across the board" kind of thing.

Why can't I delete my own posts anymore?

Does anyone know why 10kw is usually the max that they can get out of these cars? 10% seems pretty low.

Is there anything else that can be done (fuel pump?) that can mean the stock ECU can get leaned on a bit more to get say a 20% increase in power??

:yeahthat:

Because mits AFR tuning in the fuel map is actually very good. There is not much room to move at all.

:yeahthat:

Because the software in the ECU can't do anything about the physics of air flow, charge density, combustion efficiency and exhaust scavenging.

For those that have done the SKR tune, does SKR provide a before and after report of the ECU maps?

it would be nice to see that , then you make up your mind on what you wanted to do next. more info you have the better. if you buy a car second hand , you dont know what may have been done to it already.
or , for warranty purposes SKR may not want any mods done by someone else. the only sure way to know is by having the maps.

Okay i know this is going to start a whole new debate. But in theory i dont see any benefits of tuning to 98 without raising compression. Before i get abused by people please read this.

Given that unlike most people think higher octane does not burn any cleaner or harder. Higher octane means its actually more resistant to igniting by heat which is caused during compression & also that it will burn for slightly longer. Now by advancing timing you dont influence compression at all (DUH), so our cars are designed to run on 91 just fine. So in theory there will be same amount of heat during the compression stroke and at TDC. So why the hell do we need 98 octane?

First response would be, you are an idiot we need high octane because we are advancing timing. Okay whats the benefit of messing with timing? You want maximum push on the piston sometime right after TDC or ideally at TDC , . In case someone doesnt know fuel does not provide "push" right after you ignite it (it takes time to burn), so we need spark to fire few degrees before TDC so you get maximum push microsecond later when piston is in a better position for more efficient work to be done by "push" from fuel.(NOT always, depending on your RPMs on low revs you fill find that actually you might fire at TDC because piston moves slower)

Okay high octane burns slower, which gives you the opportunity to advance timing more then regular unleaded, but what is the benefit? At the end we are not interested when the fuel ignites, its getting the "push" as close to TDC as possible what we want. So if you retard timing slightly for regular unleaded to make sure it gives maximum "push" at the time its suppose to (just like 98 would) there will be no difference between two fuels

According to the tuner i use, factory maps have room to move on regular unleaded so if the tuner gets it right you will get improved power & fuel eff. So why do tuners make us use 98 then? Well simple, in case they F*** up and advance timing too much so regular unleaded will "push" while piston is still on the way up & BANG there is your pining/detonation happening, because imagine force of "explosion" multiplied with compression which is rising because piston is still moving up.

Its a damn shame our cars dont have knock sensor as you could have advanced timing very aggressively & could rely on ECU to retard it in case you got it a bit wrong.

Im ready for criticism now :)

PS economy vise, yes you could lean out AFRs slightly more, which would give you better economy, but whether its worth extra cost of 98 is debatable (again with our 9:1 CR you should be able to lean out AFRs even with 91 octane)

Oh yes TDC refers to top dead centre, meaning its when piston is at its highest point and will start to move back from then on.

could the factory ECU have a knock sensor added to it maybe ? is there provision for it somewhere?

Andrie, thats right, raising compression will make it a better tune, but it is alot more expensive (shaved heads/over sized pistons etc). in the case of raising compression, 98 octane fuel is needed to stop preignition. and like was pointed out to stop detonation when advancing the timing (what skr doesr), (while i was saying preignition before, i meant detonation like was pointed out, i admit i was confused between the two, but having said that, the cases i put forward are correct about adding 98 octane fuel)

Some of you guys need to do some research before spouting off about what you obviously dont understand!

Basically to sum up everything i said (& please before replying to this comment read my essay two posts above). We do not need 98 octane in our cars there is absolutely no benefit whatsoever. If you are getting pinging/detonation after a tune with 91 octane WELL then its your tuner who got it wrong, its not fuel's fault its that your timing is too advanced for that fuel. Properly tuned 91 will give same result as properly tuned 98. AGAIN im talking about our cars with factory compression ratio & naturally aspired. If you put 91 in car which is designed for high octane then you are an idiot.....

To answer knock sensor question, our ECU's have a lot of hidden features one of them is boost control & are capably of anything, for instance im running supercharger with factory ECU without any extra sensors (like MAP) i bet provision for knock sensor is there. But unlocking those is not a simple tick in the settings window it involves HUNDREDS of hours of going through factory maps. You are much better of with aftermarket ECU which has a provision for one.

& please dont say BUT 98 cleans your engine..... no it does NOT unless its got extra detergent additives in it, which some manufacturers claim they do. Again we have Australian standards which make all manufacturers to have specific additives to clean our engines for any fuel you buy in this country, if you are really concerned about cleanliness of your engine then add some proper additives which you can buy yourself.

Properly tuned 91 will give same result as properly tuned 98. AGAIN im talking about our cars with factory compression ratio & naturally aspired

but if the car is getting detonation due to the fact that the eplosion has occured before it would normally have, this is where 98 comes into play in these tunes. this is also the advantage of a knock sensor. because a car can get more power from 98 alone if it has a knock sensor, because 98 has a higher flash point. so a knock sensor will adjsut the a/f ratio and advance timing because the 98 allows it to do so without detonation.
this is essentially what skr does, he makes the car tuned for 98, like a knock sensor can, but it cannot be run on 91 unlike a car with a knock sensor. so 98 IS neccesary for a better tune due to the fact it has a higher flashpoint, and the car can run closer to the ideal stoichiometric ratio of fuel / air combustion. a tune on 91 WILL NOT allow you to advance timing and adjust f/a ratios to the same extent as a tune with 98

Yes but advancing timing does not mean better performance as i mentioned earlier, all you do is take advantage of slower burning 98 octane without any benefits since it actually has the same amount of energy. Again with standard compression i dont see relevance of flash point (which is actually another word for octane), as your temperature during compression remains the same regardless of what your timing is.

As as i said before you will be able to lean out your AFRs more but thats hardly worth extra cost of 98. by how much more can you lean them out vs 91, really its gonna be negligible. Dont forget we have 9:1 CR, vs new cars that have 12:1 and still run 91. Hence why you dont see cars with low compression ratios (N/A only) & which require high octane, if it really gave measurable benefits that outweigh the extra cost surely we would have seen many cars like that from factory.

You dont have to go far, look at ralliart magna. They only made 500 of them, installed new cams, increased compression. Its still running on 91 with more aggressive timing. The damn car was like $55,000 brand new surely if 98 gave it more punch it would have been used.

i think you will find that advancing the timing does increase performance, correct me if i am wrong, but it seemed to work for me, made my car drop from 14.9 - 15.1 avg down the quater to what is in my sig now, at idle my car runs about 16.5 btdc. instead of 15 like standard. i only run 95 octane fuel because it doesnt run right without it. truley doesnt. i am a big believer in e10 fuel too, so if i could i would use it. i run 95 e10 wherever possible. also, on one of dads old 303 motors, if you advanved the timing by turning the dist, it made it slightly different to drive, and made the engine run hotter, obviously not really tied into this discussion but meh

You dont have to go far, look at ralliart magna. They only made 500 of them, installed new cams, increased compression. Its still running on 91 with more aggressive timing. The damn car was like $55,000 brand new surely if 98 gave it more punch it would have been used.

We wanted to release the Ralliart magna with 10:1 comp etc but it required at least 95 octane fuel (remember 98 octane was hardly available of in 2001) to get the power/torque we wanted. Management insisted on the car using 91 octane fuel only, so to appeal to a wider range of people and keep running costs lower.... that decision limited the engine to 9.4:1 compression, whilst still meeting the full MMAL endurance/reliability testing and vehicle warrenty

The ralliart actually runs similar and in some mapping rev points slightly less timing than the stock magna BUT it does run up to 2-5 degrees more timing in the "top end" of the rev range (5000 till revlimit)

We wanted to release the Ralliart magna with 10:1 comp etc but it required at least 95 octane fuel (remember 98 octane was hardly available of in 2001) to get the power/torque we wanted. Management insisted on the car using 91 octane fuel only, so to appeal to a wider range of people and keep running costs lower.... that decision limited the engine to 9.4:1 compression, whilst still meeting the full MMAL endurance/reliability testing and vehicle warrenty

The ralliart actually runs similar and in some mapping rev points slightly less timing than the stock magna BUT it does run up to 2-5 degrees more timing in the "top end" of the rev range (5000 till revlimit)

See there you go, higher compression needed higher octane its quite simple.

Bellto. Im not saying advancing timing does nothing to performance, yes more aggressive will give you better punch. My point is you could still be fairly aggressive even with 91 octane & i can bet there will be hardly any difference between proper aggressive 91 tune & 98 tune, can someone upload timing map for ralliart? Bellto have you got your map handy? I would ahve uploaded my one but its useless for comparison as its tuned for supercharger.

See there you go, higher compression needed higher octane its quite simple.

Bellto. Im not saying advancing timing does nothing to performance, yes more aggressive will give you better punch. My point is you could still be fairly aggressive even with 91 octane & i can bet there will be hardly any difference between proper aggressive 91 tune & 98 tune, can someone upload timing map for ralliart? Bellto have you got your map handy? I would ahve uploaded my one but its useless for comparison as its tuned for supercharger.


Ive got all the maps at home on my comp (Im at work at the moment so no access to them)

I tried in my earlier post to load up a snapshot of the ralliart timing map and a TJ vrx timing map from ECUflash but couldnt get it to load up properly on here, plus i was in a hurry to get to work.

I can tell you that the ralliart at 100% load has 5 degree more timing from 5500-6500 than a TJ VRX (so 28deg Vs 23deg) BUT thru the middle of the rev range in the lower load areas (10-50%) the stock TJ VRX timing map is more aggressive than the Ralliarts.

You don't wont the burning fuel to push the piston back when it's at TDC, maximum torque would be best applied to the crank when the rotation is 90 degrees further along. At TDC it will try to stall or break a rod.

OK, fuel burn is not instantaneous but will take some time that might be expressed in degrees of rotation at a set RPM.
91 octane fuel might burn in 15 deg at 6000rpm, but 98 Octane is less volatile, so might take 20degrees of rotation to burn - I bet that the slower burn rate makes tuning safer.

And it's a well known fact that advanced timing produces more power, unless you advance too far.

I assume that the factory Magna ECU is VERY safe on it's tune to cater for Aussie outback intake temps, peak hour bumper to bumper heat soak, poor quality fuel, poor quality maintenance (filters etc) etc and this is why more timing is available and a lot of people have taken advantage of it and I'm sure with proven results.

And if higher octane fuel burns slower, maybe there's some more leeway when tuning agressively and a couple extra degrees of advance might be relatively safe. <-- just my guess


Please Note: All the above numbers are examples that I pulled out of my Assimilated Super Scrambler.

I will admit that I have a some book knowledge and very little experience in most things cars - but it sounds like some of the theory was confused and people with just theory like me are doubting people with real experience. I'm not sure that's the right thing to do.

Cheers!

You don't wont the burning fuel to push the piston back when it's at TDC, maximum torque would be best applied to the crank when the rotation is 90 degrees further along. At TDC it will try to stall or break a rod.

OK, fuel burn is not instantaneous but will take some time that might be expressed in degrees of rotation at a set RPM.
91 octane fuel might burn in 15 deg at 6000rpm, but 98 Octane is less volatile, so might take 20degrees of rotation to burn - I bet that the slower burn rate makes tuning safer.

And it's a well known fact that advanced timing produces more power, unless you advance too far.


I agree, definitely safer to use 98 octane, my argument is end result difference between two tunes 91 vs 98 might be very symbolic, thats why i want to compare the maps, stock ralliart to the one Bellto has.

Yes you are right you dont want push right at TDC, you want right after, but not to long after because you will start loosing your compression

I agree, definitely safer to use 98 octane, my argument is end result difference between two tunes 91 vs 98 might be very symbolic, thats why i want to compare the maps, stock ralliart to the one Bellto has.

Yes you are right you dont want push right at TDC, you want right after, but not to long after because you will start loosing your compression

i didnt take mine to a dyno place, i did a dodgy that i am not saying on these forums for fear of persecution lol people will say things like reliablilty and such but non of that has come into play on my car in 50 odd thousand k's. really not interested in going into it in public, but if you want you can pm me and i will go through exactly what i did to advance mt ignition timing and how i tested/ tried it, even show before and after videos of the idle timing that i achieved (shown with an inductive timing light). but yes, i get your point, but in saying there wil be sfa difference in power between a 91 and a 98 tunes, lets say 4 kw? that is about 40% of the whole increase. so you are doubleing (all be it sfa) you gain by tuning it to 98 (these figures are estimates, not gospel)

Carry on? OK. :)


In my mind, Kurt & Neo are doing OK here, and the "preaching to the choir" statement is simply because someone is saying the same thing in different words And then not even realising it! :)





From what Kurt typed above and my understanding of fuel octane - if the Octane Booster is able to produce more power, then this "Tune" is too aggressive on the timing.
Now I would assume that SKR is not going to blow someones engine on a postal tune, so this "too aggressive" must only be a minor and safe thing, ie: before pinging happens, and that it would be normal for SKR to tune to the edge like this.
If Octane Booster makes no difference to power, then we know that the ignition timing is not aggressive enough to reach this "edge" so timing could be advanced more.


I think that Bellto needs to THINK what and how (s?)he is typing (before it is typed) because I can only read those words in 2 ways - "1. skr's actions on this are b.s." or "2. Kurt is lying".
And Disciple, yes, we all (should) know that 3rd gen's don't have a knock sensor so can't benefit from Octane Booster - unless someone has changed the ignition timing with an ECU reflash.
So now the plan is to use a dyno and a bottle of octane booster and they can act as a pseudo knock sensor as already described.

Keep your chin up Kurt - it sounds like you're doing OK to me.

Thanks oggy. Yeah im doing this dyno on monday. Steve mentioned that some engines have more compression then other so that why i might or might not be able to put more spark to the tune so well find out tomoz with some dyno print outs.

So are you going to do back to back runs with and without the tuned ECU?

So are you going to do back to back runs with and without the tuned ECU?

Not yet just gonna saught this ecu out for now and get steve knight to do whatever with it then ill do back to back runs.

I don't see why you don't do back to back runs. You will never know for sure whether or not the tune was good or not. Arse dyno doesn't mean didilly squat

Ok guys went and got the dyno done wasnt really happy with the power figure. 132kwatw. And didnt change with the octane booster so i can put more spark into the tune. My dyno sheets there people are welcome to comment on the graph dont really know wat im looking at lol.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/508/dscf1876d.jpg/

Wow so are you happy now???

Wow so are you happy now???

Wow no im not. So im sending the ecu back to steve WOW.

Is my air fuel ratio when its hit maximum power? or how do i know?

...

Your Air Fuel Ratio is the ratio of air to fuel in the exhaust (usually measure before the catalytic converter). You need a wideband O2 Sensor like THIS (http://www.aemelectronics.com/wideband-air-fuel-systems-15/digital-wideband-air-fuel-gauge-25/) to measure your AFRs

That picture is terrible to start with. Those AFR's look pretty right to me, about the leanest they can be.

Also, the power was never going to change with octane booster in the tank.

Go do another couple power runs with the "untuned" ECU and I'll put money on it reading around 132kwatw.

SO whats the two dyno runs, one with octane booster the other without?

That picture is terrible to start with. Those AFR's look pretty right to me, about the leanest they can be.

You reckon? i would expect 13 to 14 on 98 should be reasonable for NA engine, my AFRs are in mid 13s with 7 psi boost.

You havent even mentioned what sort of power you were looking for... You'll be lucky to wring a few more kW out of your setup anyway

That picture is terrible to start with. Those AFR's look pretty right to me, about the leanest they can be.

Also, the power was never going to change with octane booster in the tank.

Go do another couple power runs with the "untuned" ECU and I'll put money on it reading around 132kwatw.

Would have thought it would be up around the 140kwatw mark atleast with 380 cams and full exhaust other people on here are over 140kwatw without 380cams wtf.

Ahh ok then, I know a few people who have cracked 150fwkW on that same setup. Maybe double check everything you have is 2.5" mandrell bent, there is no damage to your exhaust system and that your engine is in good running order?

Was anyone ever able to verify SKR dyno results on any other dyno?

Engines in great running shape only 100km old doesnt use oil. Wat are other things that could restrict power that much?

Engines in great running shape only 100km old doesnt use oil. Wat are other things that could restrict power that much?

The fact your relying on an ECU to boost a Magna's power up to your expectations is one part of the problem. There's probbably nothing restricting power, It's only a Magna mate.
Throw some serious money at it if you really want power, That's pretty much all there is to it. ECU, Cams, K&N and an Exhaust setup are pretty much barely going to help.
In all honesty and in the nicest way possible. Spend some serious money on upgrading if your worried about power. I'm sure Steve Knight has better things to do than worry about a postal ECU tune for a stock magna that the owner thinks is not reaching it's full potential.

excuse me but he is paying good money for it, given that it takes 15 minutes of Steves time to upload map onto stock ECU, & yes you should except slightly better then 5kw above stock figure, given the mods he has. So clearly tune he has is crap, & if Steve is not comfortable with supplying more aggressive tune via mail well then he shouldn't take $250 for absolutely no result over stock tune

$250?? He quoted me $350 for a 380 motor ecu tune. Possibility of a difference in tunes that he delivers at different price points??

excuse me but he is paying good money for it, given that it takes 15 minutes of Steves time to upload map onto stock ECU, & yes you should except slightly better then 5kw above stock figure, given the mods he has. So clearly tune he has is crap, & if Steve is not comfortable with supplying more aggressive tune via mail well then he shouldn't take $250 for absolutely no result over stock tune

Yes, but without knowing what kind of power the car was getting prior, there is no way of knowing whether the tune is "good" or not (and this goes back to what Disciple mentioned, a page or so ago). I don't think the fault is with SK here or his work - given the results others have seen. And really, even if the gain was only 5kw atw, that's still money well spent given there's very little else that can be done for that money to net those kind of gains.

Which is why you need to do back to back dyno runs with the SKR ECU and a stock untuned ECU.

Yes, but without knowing what kind of power the car was getting prior, there is no way of knowing whether the tune is "good" or not (and this goes back to what Disciple mentioned, a page or so ago). I don't think the fault is with SK here or his work - given the results others have seen. And really, even if the gain was only 5kw atw, that's still money well spent given there's very little else that can be done for that money to net those kind of gains.

Yes it would be a good result of he had stock engine, but look at his mods, well know stock can do 125 at the wheels with manual. So 130 with all mods he has & a tune is quite disappointing

Which is why you need to do back to back dyno runs with the SKR ECU and a stock untuned ECU.

Exactly, ill bet there wont be any dif

If your expecting the world from a mail tune, then sorry your a fool. If you are to get a decent tune on any car, you need to make time and toss it on the dyno. If I was Steve I would make the tune very safe as well, as you don't know the condition of the parts/motor etc. If something goes snap crackle or pop (Sorry i just had rice bubbles) who is going to be the person getting all the abuse and liable for the damage? Sure as hell you’re going to blame Steve.

As it has been said not all one motor is the same, there are some freak motors out there that will yield result much higher than a sister motor. It's just the way the cookie crumbles.

If your expecting the world from a mail tune, then sorry your a fool.

No one is expecting the world, what you do expect is $250 dollars you pay to give you some kind of result not just rev limiter removed. In this case rev limiter appears to be the only improvement. Im really anxious to see back to back dynos to prove that mail tune is a total waste...

Geez SA guys are really sticking up for one of theirs

Im not saying he is a bad tuner, this just simply proves if you want any noticeable kw gain you need car done on the dyno where tuner can take more risk, simple as that

No one is expecting the world, what you do expect is $250 dollars you pay to give you some kind of result not just rev limiter removed. In this case rev limiter appears to be the only improvement. Im really anxious to see back to back dynos to prove that mail tune is a total waste...

Geez SA guys are really sticking up for one of theirs

Im not saying he is a bad tuner, this just simply proves if you want any noticeable kw gain you need car done on the dyno where tuner can take more risk, simple as that

I'm not sticking up for anyone, I just think a mail tune is a waste of time at best. thus validating your last comment.

Speak to Trent, he gave me a short run down about his dyno tune, improved torque seemed to be the biggest gain.

I'm not sticking up for anyone, I just think a mail tune is a waste of time at best. thus validating your last comment.

Speak to Trent, he gave me a short run down about his dyno tune, improved torque seemed to be the biggest gain.

Yep, noticed with mine that eventhough the power increase was only 6kW (with 95 tune with HM headers, KN panel and extra ducting to airbox), the torque curve was both wider and higher than stock. Just check my post in awd dyno thread. I plan to do another one soon with 380 cams installed, 200cpi cat and tuned for 98.

I'm not sticking up for anyone, I just think a mail tune is a waste of time at best. thus validating your last comment

Good then we agree, postal tune not worth it.

6kw increase is not a bad result if its just from tune i.e your car is modded, you do a run & pump out 130kw, do a tune & pump put another 6kw, thats not bad at all.

Wasn't going go post but , did skr give you expected numbers ( kw) on the tune he sent you Taking into account the mods you have , or was there any talk about how the new ecu would improve performance apart from the rev limit being removed ,
Example is I had a mate with a rs250 got some pipes for it was promised 210km out of them , they only go 190km , he took them back and asked for his money back , they made a fuss but he was promised a particular top end speed and power and didnt get it , he just said he was sold a product in a false promise ,

The issue here isn't whether the postal tune gave as much gain as it should have, it's if the postal tune did anything at all.
Many are getting over 145kwatw with the same mods from the same tuning shop.

Only explanation is Kurt's car is broken or SKR didn't use the maps he made for previous AMCers.

132kwatw sounds like a gain from the mods themselves minus tune no?

132kw sounds like a manual vr-x with pacies, nothing else done.

132kw sounds like a manual vr-x with pacies, nothing else done.

i beg to differ my vrx stock made 130kw@ the wheels

Did you list all the mods when you asked for the tune? What brand and weight of oil are you running and when was it last changed?
If you want to check for more power, do back to back dyno runs on the same dyno, on the same day, under the same conditions, with each ecu.
If you want to check for faster, do some back to back speed runs on the same track, same day, same conditions with each ecu and get averages.
If you want to check for economy, make sure you don't adjust your driving style between each ecu.

It could also be that the Dyno used isn't calibrated correctly, or wasn't configured to produce a number that would impress everyone.

HP measurements from a Dyno are just a tuning tool to compare differences from one state of the vehicle to a different state of modification.
They are not reliable for comparing how big your donk hp is.
Use accurate acceleration timing, drag racing or g-force measurements on a skid pan to compare various vehicles that can't be together at the same time.

Ok well steve said ill get a 10kwatw minimum and 20kwatw gain max. But he said he dosent like putting a number on it. Dont worry guys ill be putting the untuned ecu onto the dyno versus SKR tune and well see wat we get but yeah i was expecting a 132kwatw stock with 380cams full exhaust and CAI and an 77km old engine witch is fresh so well just wait and see.

Maybe the 132kwatw is accurate and skr dyno readings are a little inflated? Or the tune is really conservative and has made little difference.

Maybe the 132kwatw is accurate and skr dyno readings are a little inflated? Or the tune is really conservative and has made little difference.

Thats wat im thinking. But its wierd i can feel a slight gain in first and second gear but 3rd 4th is exactly the same.

It could even have the same kw, but more torque or the peak torque over a wider range as I think someone suggested earlier.

It could also be that the Dyno used isn't calibrated correctly, or wasn't configured to produce a number that would impress everyone.


Maybe the 132kwatw is accurate and skr dyno readings are a little inflated? Or the tune is really conservative and has made little difference.

Quoted for truth.

Mind you his posted tunes are a direct flash from a similar car dynoed at his place, then a quick check of the parameters before posting it back.

From
http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86465&page=2

You should ask him for HRD2GT's tune (near exact setup as you) , and if you arent making 150ish kW, then its obvious that your car is the issue and not the tune

What could be wrong with his car? he just put in new engine, AFRs look alright so its not like its running reach or too lean. Also i dont think anyone ever confirmed magic dyno readings from Steves dyno on any other dyno. Its not about the figure anyhow as anyone who did few dynos will tell you that yo can not compare results from 2 different dynos, all dyno is good for is to see your gain after a mod or a tune. So we are waiting on Kurt to do back to back runs with & without tune. Comparing his 130 kws to 150 to someone got it on another dyno is completely useless.

OR

"

Car: 2000 TH V6Si (exec with sports kit)
Engine/driveline: 3.5lt Manual
Mods: 2.25inch cat back twin exhaust, custom CAI, high-flow cat, high flowed TB, SKR Tuned to 98RON
Dyno: DynoLogs @ Brisbane Tuning and Turbo Centre
Power: 198.5HPatw
"

Found at: http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64197&page=4

OR

"

Car: 2000 TH V6Si (exec with sports kit)
Engine/driveline: 3.5lt Manual
Mods: 2.25inch cat back twin exhaust, custom CAI, high-flow cat, high flowed TB, SKR Tuned to 98RON
Dyno: DynoLogs @ Brisbane Tuning and Turbo Centre
Power: 198.5HPatw
"

Found at: http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64197&page=4

Ends up to be around 150 kwatw with no cams and a restricted exhaust lol

Unless kurt goes to that dyno does a run there what the hell is point?

ALSO

Ajustable Cam Gears
Ported Heads
Ralliart Valve Springs
Oversized Valves

Thats about $2500 worth of work

Ends up to be around 150 kwatw with no cams and a restricted exhaust lol

hahaha magic i tell ya, basically drive train loss is eliminated with CAI, exhaust & a tune.

What sort of power did you make when you were NA Andrei?

an awesome 115 with auto (cat, intake manifold, cai, exhaust, muffler) , supercharged auto gave 160 on the same dyno, im yet to go back & do a run on manual.

Basically again im not looking into the figures as such, what this particular dyno tells me that i got 33% gain from supercharger

Any more news on this Kurt??

Any more news on this Kurt??

tunned ecu will be bak tomoz

Out of interest, would a tune increase fuel economy?

short answer yes it will if you wont gun it every chance u get

Ok well steve said ill get a 10kwatw minimum and 20kwatw gain max. But he said he dosent like putting a number on it. Dont worry guys ill be putting the untuned ecu onto the dyno versus SKR tune and well see wat we get but yeah i was expecting a 132kwatw stock with 380cams full exhaust and CAI and an 77km old engine witch is fresh so well just wait and see.

Can you define a 77km old engine..ie: guessing it was rebuilt from ground up? It would seem that your engine hasn't been run it and hence is still a little tight. Would be interesting to see back to back dyno test.

Cheers

I believe he means 77,000kms on the motor.

I believe he means 77,000kms on the motor.


Thats right

Any progress??

Any progress??

Ecu not back yet properly be back tomoz

Ecu not back yet properly be back tomoz

ECU back today and fitted. Yes i can definatly feel the difference in power between the 2 ecus now. The noticable difference is low end torque between low revs and 4500rpm and 5rpm most but top end feels the same. Going to a dyno first thing tomoz morning so ill let u know the results.

KEEN. So what was changed when sending it back?

KEEN. So what was changed when sending it back?

Leaned the air fuel ratio out slightly. And a fiar bit more spark advance.

So was anything actually done the first time???

So was anything actually done the first time???

Not really shore i reckon nothing was done because he couldnt of put alot more timing in witch he said he did cause he would of already put a fair bit in the first time being a 98octane tune.

Hmm hopefully it was a mistake then and not people trying to get some money for doing nothing.

Hmm hopefully it was a mistake then and not people trying to get some money for doing nothing.

Errr... not sure why someone would do this. As it only takes a few minutes to reflash the ECU so for Steve not to do it and then get an aggro customer doesn't make sense to me :/

Yep thats why it was probably a mistake.

Stock the car made 129kwatw. With new tune again made same 132kwatw with air fuel ratio at 13 now. Alot of investigation into why the cars not making the power that it should. End up taking my distributor out and found out i dont have 380 cams i have the stock number 6 cam fitted. When i got charged for fitment of the cams and who knows were the **** my number 15 cams are now so im gonna be approaching my mechanic tomoz not happy.

Well that solves the mystery... Rip him a new arsehole! Then name+shame

Well that solves the mystery... Rip him a new arsehole! Then name+shame

I was told ralliart cams made 7kwatw on a stock vrx magna. Then better again from a tune. My tune now thinks that im running a cam witch im not.

Stock the car made 129kwatw. With new tune again made same 132kwatw with air fuel ratio at 13 now. Alot of investigation into why the cars not making the power that it should. End up taking my distributor out and found out i dont have 380 cams i have the stock number 6 cam fitted. When i got charged for fitment of the cams and who knows were the **** my number 15 cams are now so im gonna be approaching my mechanic tomoz not happy.

That's absolute bullshit! what a dodgy POS!

Kurt, I suggest you take this up with consumer affairs. Did he give you the cams back that apparently he removed from your car?

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml?itemId=3863&Go.x=22&Go.y=1

Everyone was so quick to judge Steve Knight... It's a wonder he still does work for people off this forum. Yes he does hear about this sort of stuff.

Everyone was so quick to judge Steve Knight... It's a wonder he still does work for people off this forum. Yes he does hear about this sort of stuff.

Yes, the OP made a mistake in airing his views about the supposed quality of the work he'd had done - the thread quickly went from 'the car feels so good' to 'it doesn't feel any different' in a short space of time, and then the finger being pointed. Should've been taken up directly with SK and not made public on this forum. You could forgive SK for thinking all of the AMC guys are a bunch of w*nkers.

Everyone was so quick to judge Steve Knight... It's a wonder he still does work for people off this forum. Yes he does hear about this sort of stuff.

cos he just loves spending time on Magnas.....

Yes, the OP made a mistake in airing his views about the supposed quality of the work he'd had done - the thread quickly went from 'the car feels so good' to 'it doesn't feel any different' in a short space of time, and then the finger being pointed. Should've been taken up directly with SK and not made public on this forum. You could forgive SK for thinking all of the AMC guys are a bunch of w*nkers.

in my opinion the forum in general has been like that in the last 12months or so...

Guys, back on topic please.

lol Amazing. Can't believe your mechanic actually stole your cams and charged you for fitting.

cos he just loves spending time on Magnas.....

lol

I hope that's sarcasm.. I can't tell ._.

Kill that mechanic by the way kurt :)

Kurt, after speaking to you on the phone today I am still in shock that this guy has done this to you. As I said, there may be a reasonable explaination so let him try and explain first what may have happened, if you go in balls and all you will get nowhere.

I have sent off a few emails to see if I can get you another set of cams, will let you know if anything comes from this. Either way, hopefully they will not be needed and your cams will magically turn up.


in my opinion the forum in general has been like that in the last 12months or so...

Believe me, I know this has been happeneing a lot of late, for the last 18 months. I am also surprised that SKR will have anything to do with AMC at all when I hear some of the rubbish that is bantered about and I well know how Steve feels sometimes but at the end of the day, when you look at the number of people who deal with say steve and the few that have a go and in some cases who they are, one tends to sit back and have a laugh.....

Kurt, after speaking to you on the phone today I am still in shock that this guy has done this to you. As I said, there may be a reasonable explaination so let him try and explain first what may have happened, if you go in balls and all you will get nowhere.

I have sent off a few emails to see if I can get you another set of cams, will let you know if anything comes from this. Either way, hopefully they will not be needed and your cams will magically turn up.



Believe me, I know this has been happeneing a lot of late, for the last 18 months. I am also surprised that SKR will have anything to do with AMC at all when I hear some of the rubbish that is bantered about and I well know how Steve feels sometimes but at the end of the day, when you look at the number of people who deal with say steve and the few that have a go and in some cases who they are, one tends to sit back and have a laugh.....

Yeah, some people don't appreciate the effort that some members and Steve put in, i do not know Steve that well but Magna's aren't that high on the priority list, the thing is the people that go see Steve and are happy with the work don't really go posting everywhere about it, those that disagree etc seem to speak up (which your entitled to an opinion), and everything is focused on that,

Its like the national road toll its like 57ish here is SA but its like 100,000's of people get home safe...

so the point is you only here about the disgruntled people..

Like Mal could sell 20 sets of color coded door handles, he could sell one set to me and say the passenger one is broken and i go around saying he sells shit and doesn't check etc...


anyway continue on....

Wow what a rip off.... How much did he actually charge you for the cam swap?????

Good to see you found some of the cause... Its quite ironic though, as i was only saying to Steve only the other day that i wonder IF this engine actually does have the 380 cams in it. Well at least now we know it doesnt.

Hopefully you can work it out with whoever "supposedly" fitted the 380 cams and at least get the pair of cams back that should have been fitted into your engine.

Keep us informed

Just double checked the rear cam witch is also stamped number 6. So im going to call my mechanic tomoz and ask wats going on.

Hope you get this sorted with new cams because i'm really keen to see what power the tune gave.

I'd be taking the invoice to the mechanic & explain the problem in person rather than talk over the phone. He could then look back through the business records to check what other vehicles were worked on around the same time. You never know maybe there's another Magna (same color) driving around with a set of No 15 cams. A check of the workshop would be worth while as the cams may have been "put to one side".

Cheers

DO you regularly go to that mechanic?

Yes i do. But i reckon the cams are gone hes closed today so ill see him on monday.

Be tactful Kurt, you want the problem sorted and your cams back, so don't start a war. There could be an honest mistake here, so help get to the bottom it first.

Cheers Dave.

As Dave stated, go to him in person, speak to him first as may have been an honest mistake, we are all human and do make mistakes especially when very busy.

If you have no luck, then I am sure what he says and his attitude will tell you if is a genuine mistake. Just dont go giving this guy a hard time until you know the facts, we all know how frustrating it can be when someone unjustly gives another a hard time and makes accusations that are not true.

Let us know how you go

Exactly what Mal said.

Cheers Dave

Well my mechanic reckons this definatly was a mistake and said hes gonna call some wreckers so well so how it goes

That sounds positive Kurt, good luck hope it turns out all good for you.

Cheers Dave

Thats a good start that he has acknowledged a mistake. Good of him to follow up for you too. Keep us informed on your progress.

He found some number 15 cams witch it good. But back to the tune my car with the stock TH ecu made 129kwatw witch is spot on for the engine and mods i have. So its the tune really i can fault thats not making the power. Cause steve night mentioned i should check exhaust stuff like that to see if theres anything wrong but if there even was something there it would boost my standard and moddified ecu so its still gonna be the ecu that only making 3kwatw difference. So obviously im coming down to the conclusion that the postal tunes arnt gonna be spot on youll need your car on a dyno.

Kurt - It may be time to have this professionally dyno tuned. Magna tuning is not limited to SKR, Hitman, or RPW - It can be done by most Evo tuners as they will already have the flashing cables and software and just require the definitions. These can be downloaded from here: http://modifiedmagna.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=170

Call around a few tuners, ask if they have Openport/Evoscan tuning capabilities and if so, provide them with the definitions in the above download and they will be able to tune your ECU without any of this postal nonsense.

Does anyone know if its possible to flash an ecu from a 4sp auto to be able to run a 5sp tiptronic auto?

It can be done, however this will require going to a specialist as the above definitions do not have any transmission control functions. Hitman is the only person I know to have this, and another issue here is that it would be 5sp straight-shift, not 5sp tiptronic unless your ECU was already tiptronic.

I have also done this, used a 4sp auto ecu and flashed a 5sp tippy tune that I also modified to eliminate the TCL, the main issue was that I had to keep some of the TCL gear in the harness or would get issues, is all sorted now however and running as a 5sp tippy with no TCL