Hi team,

just a silly question;
how different is the 3rd gen magna box compared to an evo 5 or 6 speed box? This is excluding the transfer case.

next question, can/could an evo transfer case bolt onto a 3rd gen gearbox?

i'm just curious, no plans to cut my floor pan anytime soon :P

Cheers,
Jase

Jason,

If it will help, I can get a model code off my gearbox?

Jason,

If it will help, I can get a model code off my gearbox?
Appreciated mate but I have an Evo I can look at and have been looking at. The 5 speed evo and my/our magna 5 speed look stupidly similar

Ok. The Evo 6 speed is the same as the 5 speed too just with another gear crammed into it. From what I've read it's the same box and size etc.

Edit: Can I ask why you're wondering this? Isn't the Magna 5 speed already plenty strong enough?

Jason the Evo W5M51 and Magna F5M51 are near identical. Here is a quote from Club3g from a guy in the process of doing a AWD Manual conversion on a built 3.7L 6G74.


The EVO trans and the 3G trans are identical except for 2 notable differences, one of which is key. The first is obviously a different bellhousing design. The EVO bellhousing WILL bolt up to our trans. The other key difference is the front differential unit located inside the transmission itself. Due to the design requiring an input shaft that slides through the differential to lock the transfer case, it is inherently stronger. I'm sure you've seen what the stock differential looks like. It's called an open differential for a reason. It is the primary point of failure in a stock manual transmission and can be shattered even in a naturally aspirated form. The differential on the EVO is a closed differential and is built from stronger internal pieces.

With that being said and very good reasons you just gave above, the auto is a "stronger" trans in that as long as you stay under a certain power level it holds up just fine. Go above that power level, and stage 3 and 20 pounds of boost on the SDS should do that, and you end up breaking stock auto trannies. Built ones can handle the power exceptionally.

If you are looking for Evo gear ratios, it is possible to use all of the Evo gears on the Magna input/output shafts. The fact these transmissions are near identical is the reason they are so strong, the torque rating is something stupid like 700nm.

As for the 6sp, it has always been regarded as the weaker of the 2 boxes (5sp/6sp) so I wouldn't bother with that one.

Someone did post pics recently ofthe two boxes side by side. Look similar but turned out to be different.

You due for a new box jase.?

nah nah, just curious to know if the evo transfer case bolts onto our fwd manuals, just had some buggers trying to twist my arm into an AWD converstion so just asking for shits and giggles

EGO the pictures you are thinking of were relating to bellhousings. This is one of the primary differences, if Jason ever wanted to use the Evo box and transfer case, a custom bellhousing would be required (Guy in the states did this at a cost of $3500 or so), or you would need to hack up a Galant/Legnum 6A13 VR4 one to fit the 6G72/4/5.

Heres the followup on Club3g

The EVO VIII tranny will not bolt up to the G672. The bellhousing is different. The EVO bellhousing has provisions to bolt to a 4G6x block and also the transfer case. When looking at the trans there are 2 seperate pieces of the outer casing. The part that actually mates to the engine is the bellhousing and the other 1/2 is what is identical between the two transmission minus the differential which sits for all intents and purposes in the bellhousing section of the transmission casing.

I might eventually build an adapter plate to bolt the EVO bellhousing to the 6g72 block but I have to do it on my car first.

Edit: forget that one, this particular comparison was using a push-type clutch and had to many differences to the magna f5m51.

so for the purpose of this discussion, no chance of using an evo box on a 6G as it's in the too hard basket.

Now, is the bell housing the only or main difference between the two boxes? if so can we bolt the evo transfer case onto our F5M51 boxes? can you retain the ralliart LSD or would you have to resort to the open diff?

BTW ego, i was down your part of the world last night, cut myself up badly jumping the barb wire fence that surrounds the shire :P

Evo VI 5 speed gearbox

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3472/evo65speed.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/221/evo65speed.png/)

It's prob best to have a look at the overhaul guides...

Looking at the W5M51 it looks like its very possible if you were to fab a custom bell housing.

http://www.evoscan.com/manuals/Evo9/GR00000500-22B.pdf

Here is the F5M51 overhaul:

http://tearstone.com/eclipsefsm/GR00006900-22B.pdf

However, you will need to lose your Ralliart LSD and replace it with an Evo front LSD.

As for the 6sp, it has always been regarded as the weaker of the 2 boxes (5sp/6sp) so I wouldn't bother with that one.

Sorry, I know I'm going off on a tangent here, but that comment while true for the most part, isn't the whole story. The weak link in the 6 speed is the 4th gear. It was made smaller to accomodate the 6th gear. 1st and second are actually larger in the 6 speed and so are actually stronger. Most 6 speed failures I've heard of is guys abusing the cars on the track, and always 4th gear that goes. Mine's almost double the stock factory power and has stood up to plenty of abuse. It's like anything with cars - have some mechanical sympathy and it should be ok.

Sorry, I know I'm going off on a tangent here, but that comment while true for the most part, isn't the whole story. The weak link in the 6 speed is the 4th gear. It was made smaller to accomodate the 6th gear. 1st and second are actually larger in the 6 speed and so are actually stronger. Most 6 speed failures I've heard of is guys abusing the cars on the track, and always 4th gear that goes. Mine's almost double the stock factory power and has stood up to plenty of abuse. It's like anything with cars - have some mechanical sympathy and it should be ok.

Don't forget the 6sp's overheating issues, and the fact that Jason commonly uses his car in gymkhanas, drag racing, and other motorsport events.

As I am actually doing this as we speak I guess I am really the only one who can speak from actual experience here

No the trans case will not bolt to a 6g fwd box

Both the evo and the 6a13 boxes are so close to same either can be modified

From the bell housing bach all of these boxes are the same except in the diff area for fwd vs awd

Mal, why did u have to get involved here? We almost had one up and running until you destroyed our dreams!!! :P

Don't forget the 6sp's overheating issues, and the fact that Jason commonly uses his car in gymkhanas, drag racing, and other motorsport events.

Overheating issues?? In a manual??? I've never heard of this!

has anyone got a picture of a magna gearbox from the same angle as ive got a picture of an evo gearbox?

Ta

Guys,
Simply the difference between a 4 cylinder and 6G manual transmission is the shape of the clutch housing area.
The Magna clutch side of the transmission has a vee shaped cutout at the top to clear the water outlet that is in the bottom of the engine vee, some of the mounting holes to the engine are in different places.

4 cylinder FWD vs AWD. Clutch side of the transmission is the same at the engine end, has a ribbed, machined face with mounting holes at the diff end.

So to recap. To make an AWD 6G manual transmission there are these possibilities.

1) Make a 1 off clutch side transmission case to fit the 6G engine and have the mounting points for the transfer case assembly. - Very expensive
2) Make an adaptor plate that goes on an existing 6G FWD transmission so the transfer case can be bolted up.
3) Find a 6G manual AWD transmission in the JDM.or NZ markets. Mix and match the bits of that transmission with an existing FWD manual transmission.

The other issue is the gear ratios and centre diff ratio. Final drive ratio in FWD speak.
Final drive ratio is set by ratio created by the number of teeth on the transmission output shaft to the number of teeth on the diff crownwheel.
Pointless having a 4 cylinder final drive ration in a Magna unless you want acceleration only.

I suspect that Mal is going down route 3) and is rebuilding / reconditioning as he goes. This is why he is saying that it will be expensive as a fair number of hours work will be involved as well as the cost of needing 2 donor transmissions to get 1 converted transmission..
Gerry

guys , excuse my ignoramus , but you are saying the 3G AWD V6 we have in Oz was never sold in manual form? only auto?

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/bellto/16012010943.jpg

this is the best ive got no bellhousing, but it might help

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn149/finesse49ers/2010-04-01094803.jpg

Spud, you can not make an adapter plate for the trans case, the diff set up is totally different to the FWD and AWD

The trans canse and rear diff is all that needs to match up, the diff ratio in the gear box can be changed at will

I am doing a manual conversion at the moment, have worked out what is needed, am speaking to an engineer at the moment who will most likely be doing the actual mods to the bell housing from the box I have

Good luck BTW with getting a AWD nz spec or any spec box as these in NZ came with teh 6A13 engines as well

Guys,
Simply the difference between a 4 cylinder and 6G manual transmission is the shape of the clutch housing area.
The Magna clutch side of the transmission has a vee shaped cutout at the top to clear the water outlet that is in the bottom of the engine vee, some of the mounting holes to the engine are in different places.

4 cylinder FWD vs AWD. Clutch side of the transmission is the same at the engine end, has a ribbed, machined face with mounting holes at the diff end.

So to recap. To make an AWD 6G manual transmission there are these possibilities.

1) Make a 1 off clutch side transmission case to fit the 6G engine and have the mounting points for the transfer case assembly. - Very expensive
2) Make an adaptor plate that goes on an existing 6G FWD transmission so the transfer case can be bolted up.
3) Find a 6G manual AWD transmission in the JDM.or NZ markets. Mix and match the bits of that transmission with an existing FWD manual transmission.

The other issue is the gear ratios and centre diff ratio. Final drive ratio in FWD speak.
Final drive ratio is set by ratio created by the number of teeth on the transmission output shaft to the number of teeth on the diff crownwheel.
Pointless having a 4 cylinder final drive ration in a Magna unless you want acceleration only.

I suspect that Mal is going down route 3) and is rebuilding / reconditioning as he goes. This is why he is saying that it will be expensive as a fair number of hours work will be involved as well as the cost of needing 2 donor transmissions to get 1 converted transmission..
Gerry

No such thing exists. 6A manual AWD bellhousing is closer to the evo than the 6G.

Mal, are you able to post pictures of the differences between evo and magna bellhousings in the diff area? That's the only angle I don't have.