Warning : Interested Tuners Only - Long post!

Holy Hydrocarbons Batman!

Just finished reviewing some AFR logging I've been running with my new MTX-L WB gauge + Bosch Sensor and this thing is even richer than I thought.
Watching the guage is useless as I've missed some of the major dips that the logs show

Basically at WOT once the Coolant temperature is up, I'm down to 8.5:1 :eek2: , so rich in fact , that if I really boot it when the coolant temperature reaches 99-100 and the IAT has risen to 6-10 above ambient, the ECU injects so much fuel that the sensor throws an E8 error (which translates to either "sensor is damaged" or "stupidly rich"), and I have to turn the engine off and back on again for the sensor to reset. This only happens when I fully boot the hell out of it when the car has reached full operating temperature after about 20 minutes of hard driving.

Even more frightening is that I've had to mount the sensor after the two primary CATS!, so in reality this figure would be somewhere between 0.3 and 0.5 lower again if measured before the CATS. i.e. 8:1 :eeek:........ FAIL!

This might explain why I've always noticed the performance increase when the car is just warmed. For example: today I logged a run to work with a few good WOT boots, no E8 and the AFR didn't drop below 9.9. I think this is because the Coolant Temp didn't go over 93 and IAT not more than 4 above ambient whenever I booted it.

Basically what I'm trying to say is , I think the ECU is injecting a hideous amount of fuel at high load when the engine/IAT is hot in an attempt to cool it down.
However, this is lower than any dyno or AFR figure that I've seen for this car on these forums, so it makes me wonder: is it that the berklee straight through + smooth bore 76mm Throttle intake + two airbox intakes(Galant + 60mm lower res replacement) + K&N push so much air through that the ECU is way over-compensating with fuel under "hot" conditions, ... or is the gauge out?

I've calibrated the gauge , and it seems pretty accurate. Backing it's measurements up are the 0.9V readings from the factory Narrow bands - these are not very useful of course, however 0.9V is about as rich as the 380 narrows can possibly read, so supportive of a supremely rich condition

Has anybody else seen AFRs' this low on a 380? i.e. 8.5:1? :nuts:

Interestingly, today the OBD logs showed a max of 164KW at 527 Nm of Torque!
This was associated with a huge air gulp of 202 g/s from the MAF. The interesting bit is that this happened at an AFR value that went from 11.3 UP to 14.1 and back down to 11.6 over the second or so that these KW where produced, before proceeding right down to 9.9 in an typical orderly manner over the next 2 seconds. I think what basically happened here is that the ECU was too slow to richen the mix in it's customary fashion (the MAF suddenly gulped 202g/s up from 105g/s in a quarter of a second!- biggest jump I've seen), which resulted in a significant power /torque gain in the momentary very lean condition of 12-14:1 at maximum load that resulted before the ECU gagged it with half the worlds oil supply

This makes me really optimistic about the power I'm going to get when I put my Voltage Interceptor in this weekend, and start shaving these MAF and IAT figures

Cheers,

RG

If you check the dyno graph thread I think we found most were running in the 10's but not as bad as the readings you are getting.

If you check the dyno graph thread I think we found most were running in the 10's but not as bad as the readings you are getting.

Yep, this is where I got most of my comparative samples from. I'm actually a little concerned for the welfare of my new sensor under these conditions. Feel a real sense of urgency to get that interceptor on before it's ruins my new investment

Now resend the post in english so us mere mortals can understand
That figure of 527Nm of torque is way over standard spec?

Now resend the post in english so us mere mortals can understand
That figure of 527Nm of torque is way over standard spec?

Sorry Chris, my wife accuses me of overexplaining things all the time

Main Points:

1. My 380 is ridiculously rich , 8:1 (even with a bored MAF outer screen), wanted to know if anybody else has seen this low
2. This seems to happen worst when the engine is hot, possibly due to the ECU using fuel as a cooling measure
3. I'm seeing big power and torque figures at occasional lean conditions under load, where the ECU Air/fuel correction lags behind the airflow readings
4. I'm going to add an interceptor this week to change the reading that the ECU sees from the Mass Airflow Meter to lie to it about the air coming into the engine so I can trick the ECu into injecting less fuel at certain points

I read somewhere that the ideal ratio is 14:1 Also that torque figure you quoted is very high
Cheers
for the explanation. Keep up the good work

Hi again

I am still trying to get my logging sorted. Mine is on LPG and uses about 18 to 20 l/100 in typical Sydney traffic. Trip computer shows about 14.5 (ie how much petrol it thinks is being used - about right for a 1.3 factor LPG to petrol difference in energy density

Only get good rresults on long gentle Highway runs at GPS = 110 kmh

I have yet to discover how the LPG system controls the vapour injection - I have the MMAL approved system - I presume it is some form of piggy back ECU to interprete/convert main ECU "petrol needed" output to LPG needed.

Sorry Chris, my wife accuses me of overexplaining things all the time

Main Points:

1. My 380 is ridiculously rich , 8:1 (even with a bored MAF outer screen), wanted to know if anybody else has seen this low
2. This seems to happen worst when the engine is hot, possibly due to the ECU using fuel as a cooling measure
3. I'm seeing big power and torque figures at occasional lean conditions under load, where the ECU Air/fuel correction lags behind the airflow readings
4. I'm going to add an interceptor this week to change the reading that the ECU sees from the Mass Airflow Meter to lie to it about the air coming into the engine so I can trick the ECu into injecting less fuel at certain points

Careful you dont run too lean when youre up it or you will fry a piston

Im not sure if this is helpful BUT on one of my parents 380's (with 14,000kms) it failed an emissions test because it was running rich and got sent back to mitsubishi for them to fix (not sure what they did)

Im not sure if this is helpful BUT on one of my parents 380's (with 14,000kms) it failed an emissions test because it was running rich and got sent back to mitsubishi for them to fix (not sure what they did)
I'd be fascinated to know what they did , as I doubt they would've re-tuned it (bosch troubles etc. )

RG, I would get your sensor checked. I would of thought the engine would miss firing at A/F.

Cheers Dave

If these 380's run rich why is there never any carbon deposit on the muffler tip ( not on mine anyway)
I always thought there would be tell tale signs. My old ss exhaust had a build up that you could wipe with your finger

my 380 has this ^^^

my 380 has this ^^^
what's this?

what's this?

i assume they mean the carbon deposit in the exhaust

I run a ChipTorque Xede piggyback with the AFRs leaned out a fair bit by Steve Knight and I still get a build up of black soot inside the exhaust tips.

I reckon it's mainly due to the auto choke running insanely rich until the motor warms up a bit. So worse in winter than in summer.

AFAIK nothing can be or should be done about this.

KJ.

Strange then as I get nothing at all.

Something is seriously wrong with that OBD reading. Try it on another 380 if you can to check calibration.

380's are roughly around the 175 kW & 343 Nm mark. 527 Nm is completely unrealistic for a 380, even if it was S/C'ed.

Something is seriously wrong with that OBD reading. Try it on another 380 if you can to check calibration.

380's are roughly around the 175 kW & 343 Nm mark. 527 Nm is completely unrealistic for a 380, even if it was S/C'ed.

Yeah, I've always wondered about dyno torque readouts.

Mine from back on 18/04/2010 at SKR shows 709Nm, see this post: http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52148&p=1238973&viewfull=1#post1238973

Obviously no way I'm making that much, maybe 360Nm at best.

Does anyone know why this is so?

Maybe something very different about torque measured at the flywheel vs torque measured on dyno rollers?

KJ.

Yeah, I've always wondered about dyno torque readouts.

Mine from back on 18/04/2010 at SKR shows 709Nm, see this post: http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52148&p=1238973&viewfull=1#post1238973

Obviously no way I'm making that much, maybe 360Nm at best.


Does anyone know why this is so?

Maybe something very different about torque measured at the flywheel vs torque measured on dyno rollers?

KJ.

Maybe because it is measured at the rollers and the torque at wheels is multiplied by final drive ratio???

i assume they mean the carbon deposit in the exhaust

Correct ;)

My 380's exhaust has more black soot in the exhaust than my diesel work truck.

I feel that if I do too many short trips I'm going to end up looking like this;

http://i.imgur.com/nF0B6.jpg

Look out though dude... The Red Queen is going to hit you hard with the Carbon Tax! :naughty:

Look out though dude... The Red Queen is going to hit you hard with the Carbon Tax! :naughty:

You just mad you had to buy a turbo to get 700nm.

http://i.imgur.com/EhqGe.jpg

Too true! lol

So why do I have no deposits. I could drink out of my exhaust tips, (not that I would want to!)

How many kilometres have you done with your twin Powerflow mufflers?

Also, you have 4 tips, I have one. lol

From memory about 8000k. Never a sign of black

Compared to 90,000 all from the one tip. Distribution may be the reason, or I may be talking out of my arse. Who knows? :hmm:

My 380's exhaust has more black soot in the exhaust than my diesel work truck.

I feel that if I do too many short trips I'm going to end up looking like this;

http://i.imgur.com/nF0B6.jpg

Mine is LPG and I could eat from it as it is so clean ??air filter??

I clean my tip regularly and find its still emitting more carbon than china in short periods.

hmmm.. In hindsight.. I don't really trust this gauge all that much, Dave is right.. If it was as rich as 8.5:1 surely I'd be getting misfires, and my exhaust tip WOULD have to be pitch black, probably with plenty of smoke also. not really seeing enough of this to justify. Also the gauge throws an "E8" error every so often and freezes up until restarted. This could be a bad sensor, or a very rich condition, so no help from the error code there. Incidentally , it hasn't gone this low again for a long time. Doesn't go below 9.5 ish now, more clues of inconsistency (do 02 sensors need to be run in?). My Jaycar voltage interceptor also seems to be a POS, just can't get it to relay the MAF voltage unchanged.. Pretty much ready to bin it and start again.... sigh .. maybe I should just drive the thing.