I'm seriously keen on getting a six speed manual transmission with LSD and I'm looking for advice.
I already have a stock five speed manual.
AFAICT the 2006 US Galant Ralliart came with a six speed manual as an option, but it was then discontinued.
Also the 2006 to 2010(??) Eclipse GT.
So far I haven't been able to find out if either of these manual transmissions came stock with an LSD.
And of course if I could locate such a transmission would it bolt up to my 380 at all?
And if it would bolt up would it be a straight swap or would I need to source & change other parts such as driveshafts? And maybe some engineering of some parts would be needed?
And some idea of cost - purchase, shipping and installation. I'm guessing anywhere between $2,000 & $5,000 all up if it could be done.
I've Googled and seached eBay Motors and found nothing. Do second hand Galant/Eclipse six speed manual trans even exist?
I know it's a long shot, but worth exploring I reckon. The sixth speed itself could pay for much of it in reduced fuel bills over the next six or seven years, as I do about 10,000k a year of freeway/country road driving and the fuel economy in 5th gear is nothing to write home about.
I know I could get a 3rd gen manual final drive fitted for around $1,000 and improve fuel economy a bit but I'd much rather have a six speed, and an LSD while I'm at it. It would be unique in a 380 as far as I know.
Feel free to 'tell him he's dreamin'!

KJ.

Life would know he has researched this area before

From what I've seen in the past - a 6 speed's final gear is rarely much taller than the 5th gear, basically it's just a close ratio box.

But I've never heard of the Mitsu 6 speed, so no idea if it fits in this category.
Do you know the ratios of the two boxes you're comparing?

Graham.

From what I've seen in the past - a 6 speed's final gear is rarely much taller than the 5th gear, basically it's just a close ratio box.

But I've never heard of the Mitsu 6 speed, so no idea if it fits in this category.
Do you know the ratios of the two boxes you're comparing?

Graham.

Graham,

I don't anything about the 'box other than it was an option on the Galant Ralliart and the Eclipse GT.

Even if it's a close ratio box I'm guessing that the overall gearing in 6th is still a fair bit bit taller than the stupidly short 5th gear in a manual 380 (near as dammit to 3,000rpm at 110km/h).

So some info about the ratios (including final drive ratio) would be handy to know.

KJ.

Quaife US have done a LSD for the Aisen Eclipse 6 speed, so if you can find a box this will very likely be possible.

OK, done some more searching on eBay, found three of these boxes for sale in the US.
Price range $1,100 to $1,300 US.
Thing is none of the sellers ship OS.
Maybe I can twist an arm?
But could cost a packet to ship to Oz.

Done a whole heap more checking on the interwebz and still can't tell if this box came with an LSD.
But going by Foozr's advice prolly not, otherwise why would Quaife do an LSD for it.

So looking like it would cost a packet to buy one of these, get it shipped to Oz, get an LSD for it, and get it fitted.
Prolly more than my 380 is worth.

Yep, looks like he's dreamin'.

KJ.

Ok, did some serious googling. Found these as the specs for the 6 speed in the eclipse

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/8370/sixmanualratios.png

Probably wouldnt cost a hell of a lot more than I spent to get my Quaife custom machined & fitted to the 5 speed ;)

That's a seriously short 6th gear ratio!

i doubt you would make back your money in fuel savings with just the extra gear ratio. Wouldn't it be more effecient to just get lpg with the rebate and get the savings in fuel that way??

Ok, did some serious googling. Found these as the specs for the 6 speed in the eclipse

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/8370/sixmanualratios.png

Thanks mate, much appreciated.

By my calculations the 6 speed should do around 700rpm less than the 5 speed at 110km/h. Roughly 2,300rpm v 3,000rpm.

The overall ratio for the stock 5 speed in 5th gear is 0.804 x 4.111 = 3.305, for the 6 speed it's 0.79 x 3.24 = 2.56.

Thats a difference of .745 or 22.5% of the stock overall ratio.

22.5% of 3,000rpm is 675rpm = reduction to 2,325rpm at 110km/h.

That's a useful drop, but prolly still not worth $10,000!

KJ.

Thanks mate, much appreciated.

By my calculations the 6 speed should do around 700rpm less than the 5 speed at 110km/h. Roughly 2,300rpm v 3,000rpm.

The overall ratio for the stock 5 speed in 5th gear is 0.804 x 4.111 = 3.305, for the 6 speed it's 0.79 x 3.24 = 2.56.

Thats a difference of .745 or 22.5% of the stock overall ratio.

22.5% of 3,000rpm is 675rpm = reduction to 2,325rpm at 110km/h.

That's a useful drop, but prolly still not worth $10,000!

KJ.
No problem!
Just wondering if doing a conversion to a 3.5L Magna manual would be a better option? 5th is 0.761 and final is 3.722, so using your calcs, gives 2.83

I reckon you could do it for $5K

That's a seriously short 6th gear ratio!

Agreed, but when combined with the much taller final drive ratio in the 6 speed it's a 22.5% improvement over 5th gear in the stock box.

Still can't figure out the MMAL logic behind a 4.111 final drive ratio in the stock 380 manual box.

OK, it gives better acceleration through the gears, but what's the use when it means wheelspin city in first & second, and second & third wind out way too soon (90km/h and 130km/h in mine v 80km/h and 120km/h stock).

KJ.

Have a look at a Tiburon box

Fit a 3.5 manual magna final drive gear set to your 380 box. (easy to do if your getting a LSD fitted) Theres a certain IPR magna that has now had the magna diff ratio fitted into its 380 gearbox

The 3.5 magna diff ratio is a bit taller and will make 3000rpm = 120kmh in 5th gear

Have a look at a Tiburon box

Tibby box is worse for economy (4.4 FD), mad for accelleration though. Was tempted but $1100 was a bit much.

serious suggestion,

trade your car in on a auto 380, i doubt the swap over value would be more than 5k. then you will have the nice long ratio 5th gear for eco cruising.


but where is the fun in that right?

serious suggestion,

trade your car in on a auto 380, i doubt the swap over value would be more than 5k. then you will have the nice long ratio 5th gear for eco cruising.


but where is the fun in that right?

Yep, that's why I bought a manual in the first place.

I intend to keep this car for another 7 or 8 years and I have no desire to swap it for an auto.

I've been looking at sourcing an LSD and the Magna final drive ratio for some time now, but then I thought a six speed (preferrably with LSD) would be nice and also something unique, I could recoup some of the cost over time with improved highway fuel economy, and maybe it wouldn't cost much more than Plan A.

It now looks as though it would cost a lot more, so back to Plan A.

Trouble is with Plan A I still haven't found out if a Quaife LSD will slot into a 380 manual 'box without major hassles (= $), as AFAICT no-one has tried it yet.

KJ.

Blackstar did it AFAIK

Blackstar did it AFAIK

With an auto box, not a manual.

So did Fooz.

AFAIK no-one has ever put an LSD in a manual 380 box.

Maybe one of the IPRA guys????

KJ.

With an auto box, not a manual.

So did Fooz.

AFAIK no-one has ever put an LSD in a manual 380 box.

Maybe one of the IPRA guys????

KJ.

KJ I'm pretty sure the manual is the same series box as the Magnas so a Quaife should slot straight in. I looked & looked for years before I ended up with what I have now for the auto. If you are serious about this you can get the Quaife centre from RPW & they will credit it back if it isn't right (I asked this question originally). Find a good transmission guy & get them to pull your box & check it. It cost me $700 to pull it out, break it apart & fit the modified Quaife (which included a little bit of casting grinding & a flush with new fluid) & reassemble & install. The worst you would be out of pocket would be $700 but I'm sure if it doesn't drop straight in it would be a minor thing not like the auto. I had to pay for $2200 worth of machining on top of everything else which you should be able to avoid being manual.

$2000 could see you driving away LSD equiped if you just bite the bullet ;)

With an auto box, not a manual.

So did Fooz.

AFAIK no-one has ever put an LSD in a manual 380 box.

Maybe one of the IPRA guys????

KJ.

There is/was at least 1 of the IPRA magnas that was running a LSD equipped 380 box that was also retro fitted with the taller 3.5 magna diff ratio. Last i heard from the said person was the LSD (kaaz) had shit itself and they were changing over to a Quaife or wavetrac unit, mind you this was earlier this year.

Manual is similar but different

The drive shafts are the same spline as the auto, to put an lsd in requires remounting the centre to the crownwheel but can and has been done

Ok well if the splines are the same as the auto you will be up for the same as I was in the auto. Somewhere around $4-4.5K to do it with a Quaife centre.

For around $2k all up a Quaife LSD with the Magna final drive ratio seems a fair proposition.

But $4k to $4.5k is pushing it a bit far, that's why I thought maybe a used six speed box with LSD as standard from the good ol' US of A might be a better way to go. Same cost, maybe less, and the bonus of a six speed box and a unique car.

The lower fuel consumption in top gear isn't the main thing for me, that would just be an added bonus. The LSD is the main thing.

Have to think about it a bit more, thanks for the advice & suggestions.

KJ

The original TMR 220 show car (382) is fitted with a Torsen LSD and I recently fitted another one to my white race car no. 380 after taking out the welded up hemisphere, Simple job, just bolt the crown wheel on and drop it in, but I'm not happy with the result, the car was faster with the totally locked diff so I'll be taking both LSD's out soon, PM me if interested.

The original TMR 220 show car (382) is fitted with a Torsen LSD and I recently fitted another one to my white race car no. 380 after taking out the welded up hemisphere, Simple job, just bolt the crown wheel on and drop it in, but I'm not happy with the result, the car was faster with the totally locked diff so I'll be taking both LSD's out soon, PM me if interested.

Thanks Neil, PM sent.

I've done a lot more checking into the Aisen 6 speed manual trans fitted to US Galants & Eclipses, and I still can't find anything that says one way or another if it includes an LSD.

I'm guessing that because LSD is not mentioned at all in anything I've checked it's 99% certain it doesn't include an LSD.

If it did include an LSD surely someone somewhere would have spruiked it.

Looking more and more like getting a 6 speed manual trans with LSD fitted would cost a bomb.

Now to decide between 6 speed manual trans without LSD or stick with the stock 5 speed and add LSD & maybe Magna final drive gear.

KJ I can almost gaurantee you the 6 speed won't have an LSD, there is no reason it would be placed in a stock transmission supplied with a stock vehicle unless it was a limited edition performance release which the Eclipse wasn't. Quaife told me via email they had developed a diff for this box which implies it definitely didnt have one standard otherwise why would they bother.

If you can get the LSD from Neil above at the right price I think it's a no brainer ......

I've done a little reseach on this. Time to share my findings.

The most appealing thing about this transmission is the split final drive. In gears 1-4 the final drive is 3.777 (Similar to a 3.5L F5M51), however in gears 5-6 the final drive drops to 3.238 (Resulting in better fuel economy, and lower freeway revs).

Gear Ratios:

1st 3.214
2nd 2.238
3rd 1.535
4th 1.171
5th 1.085
6th 0.790
Reverse 3.456
Final reduction ratio No.1 3.777 (1st-4th)
Final reduction ratio No.2 3.238 (5th-6th)- Production from 2006-2012
- Produced by Aisin. The gearbox is shared with Toyota Avensis, Toyota Corolla, Toyota RAV4, Mazda6, Mazda5, Mitsubishi Eclipse, Mitsubishi Grandis
- Torque rating is in excess of 700nm
- No reported issues with broken differentials (even with some hipo builds)
- This one is kind of annoying. In mid 2008 Mits converted to push clutch type. You will need a 2006-2007 transmission.
- There is not a traditional transmission slave cylinder, it is replaced with a concentric slave cylinder.
- The transmission is a "lift for reverse" R-1-2-3-4-5-6 pattern. The "lift" may be possible to remove by using a traditional shifter however this will make accidental "reverse" selection possible. However you will need the shifter cables (100% required) and shifter mechanism sent over just incase.
- It has been deemed possible to do a pull conversion to 2008 onwards transmissions by replacing the concentric slave cylinder with a pull type.
- This one scares me... The transmission mount is different, it is only 3 studs. http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m274/trevr/6g75%20swap/IMG_1201.jpg
- Custom CV's are required, Eclipse 4G half shaft is required (24 spline count), these don't cost much so not too much of a biggy.
- Speedometer gear ratio is 25/33 so you will need your trans sent with speedo sensor attached, or will need to order the speedo gear from mits and attach to your sender.
- I am yet to confirm the Input shaft spline count and diameter, however if this is different it would be a deal breaker... Everything else is fairly small, but having to use an Eclipse clutch would be a no-go.

Research was done as I'm currently looking for a box to replace my pos 5sp with, I'm sick of breaking them. This will be trans #6 installed in the car, so whatever goes in needs to last.

Dean if you break that many gearboxes i suggest you improve your driving skills before splashing out so much cash on a 6sp. Say what you will but its clear that you cannot change gears for shit. How is it that some magnas on this site are putting down twice as much power and torque as yours but they seem to stand up to the abuse?

Dean if you break that many gearboxes i suggest you improve your driving skills before splashing out so much cash on a 6sp. Say what you will but its clear that you cannot change gears for shit. How is it that some magnas on this site are putting down twice as much power and torque as yours but they seem to stand up to the abuse?

I have to agree, look at BrettH and VRX_MY02, look at my wagon, and my prevous cars which put down a lot more power than yours and still I have NEVER broken a diff. Dean if you are going to bag out a part of a Magna, please at least be factual about the issue and admit you abuse your equipment and that the equipment that you are breaking others use and do not break

now back to the topic, I also have looked into this, the spline count on the drive shafts is not an issue, nor is the input shaft as even if the spline count is different, you simply get a disk with the correct spline.

The only thing that is needed as a 100% is the mount issue for all 3 mounts from what I can tell. I am trying to set up one to have it imported as we speak, have found the box, shifter and most of the other bits I need, just trying to work out freight at the moment to see if will be worthwhile

Dean, stock diffs are not weak!

I may have blown one at the drag strip, but that was a gearbox I knew was on the way out (clunking, thumping and grinding into every single gear) and I gave it an absolute raping that night.

If you abuse your gearboxes, then you have to expect that they will break, especially with the open diff

I don't care how the **** I drive. Fact is that there are hundreds of reported cases (trans is used in more then just the magna) of f5m51 transmissions blowing stock diffs. It is the weakest point. This is not an issue for the f6mba.

I need to replace my trans as bearings were shot when I first installed. It clunks and has since installed. I don't want to spend 2500 on a 5sp that will handle abuse.

I have to agree, look at BrettH and VRX_MY02, look at my wagon, and my prevous cars which put down a lot more power than yours and still I have NEVER broken a diff. Dean if you are going to bag out a part of a Magna, please at least be factual about the issue and admit you abuse your equipment and that the equipment that you are breaking others use and do not break

now back to the topic, I also have looked into this, the spline count on the drive shafts is not an issue, nor is the input shaft as even if the spline count is different, you simply get a disk with the correct spline.

The only thing that is needed as a 100% is the mount issue for all 3 mounts from what I can tell. I am trying to set up one to have it imported as we speak, have found the box, shifter and most of the other bits I need, just trying to work out freight at the moment to see if will be worthwhile

Mal,

Are you planning/hoping to instal this box in a Magna or a 380?

Or maybe mated up to a 6G75 motor in a Magna?

Keen to know how you go if it happens, especially in a 380.

KJ.

I don't care how the **** I drive. Fact is that there are hundreds of reported cases (trans is used in more then just the magna) of f5m51 transmissions blowing stock diffs. It is the weakest point. This is not an issue for the f6mba.

I need to replace my trans as bearings were shot when I first installed. It clunks and has since installed. I don't want to spend 2500 on a 5sp that will handle abuse.

You have zero mechanical sympathy mate, Just like the neutral dumps you used to do with the auto!!

I don't care how the **** I drive. Fact is that there are hundreds of reported cases (trans is used in more then just the magna) of f5m51 transmissions blowing stock diffs. It is the weakest point. This is not an issue for the f6mba.

I need to replace my trans as bearings were shot when I first installed. It clunks and has since installed. I don't want to spend 2500 on a 5sp that will handle abuse.

I am not having a go at you Dean but this is more for those out there who have some sort of common sense

You may not care how you drive but when you have this poor attitude, DONT bag out what was made to suit a family production car as being a weak point as when used properly, even with larger amounts of power, they are fine. When being abused, then something has to break. The fact that it is the diff so what, it is not being used within the design limitations set out by the maker

So, let me get this clear, you dont want to spend $2500 on a decent box which will endure your driving habits, then buy a 10 speed racer mate. Sorry for being blunt as I know that you will not appreciate this, but if you dont want to spend money, then dont modify your car

KJ, not sure at this stage, just playing with some ideas here, first I need to get the bits I need and then I will most likely try it out in my wagon first. Main issue is that there are 3 mounts that bolt to the gear box, from the pics I have been shown so far, looking like none will come close to the Magna ones so there may need to be some fabrication done, if so will get an injuneer to do this so it will still be both safe as well as approvable. I dont like doing things half assed as seems to be the case sometimes with a few around here lol

To be fair, I only broke one... But, I do enjoy hitting WSID occasionally and I feel I am limiting my times out of paranoia... I'm not really keen on rebuild+lsd. It would be nice, but not $2500 nice. $1500 I can deal with, esp with the awesome 5th/6th ratios it comes with (This is a price I think I can get away with for the F6MBA).

Btw:
- http://tearstone.com/eclipsefsm/2006_PS24S_MMNA_SM_PDF/GR00003900-22C.pdf
- http://tearstone.com/eclipsefsm/2006_PS24S_MMNA_SM_PDF/GR00006200-21C.pdf

I also feel the clutch is a major cause for broken differentials in F5M51's, all the ones I heard of broken were all fitted Exedy HD's (Or in the states, stage 2-4 clutches), seems to be a bit unforgiving... Having driven on a stocker clutch for 3 months, the OEM is definately more forgiving...

I barely scraped over $2100 for my full gearbox reco + LSD...

And at $1500, you dont get an LSD with the 6 Speed either??

And to be fair, you may have "only broke one", but you prepped the one that Brendan finished off!

I'm not phased about an LSD, I just want something stronger (which the Aisin is). I would prefer longer overdrive gear over an LSD.

Tell you what dean, the gearbox I got off Matt Green is the box that got reco'd. I got my old open diff out of that and had a look at it. With all the abuse he supposedly gave it, along with my "spirited driving"; the diff looks to be in good condition.

I'm not phased about an LSD, I just want something stronger (which the Aisin is). I would prefer longer overdrive gear over an LSD.

I vaguely remember reading a while ago on a US forum that the 6 speed wasn't as strong & not used in the higher powered cars??

They do not "wear down" - Given enough force in one hit, the locking pin slides out and releases the spider gears which results in them being munched. So your previous comment about "priming my box to break" is a load of bs. Atleast research the causes if you are going to try and be a dick.

I vaguely remember reading a while ago on a US forum that the 6 speed wasn't as strong & not used in the higher powered cars??

I believe they have have been referring to the issue of Evo 6 speeds blowing 4th gear, not really an issue for an NA6 FWD. Not even an issue for a hipo Evo unless you are constantly giving it track abuse.

They do not "wear down" - Given enough force in one hit, the locking pin slides out and releases the spider gears which results in them being munched.

The locking pin didnt slide out of the diff that I did at the drag strip! I was able to drive it home 40k's very jerkily but it got home. Dinger's blown diff was the same. If you want, we can crack open the gearboxes? I still have both in my backyard!


So your previous comment about "priming my box to break" is a load of bs. Atleast research the causes if you are going to try and be a dick.

**** you Dean.

I saw the way you drove with the two gearboxes that blew diffs (RIP poor diffs), and we told you that you were going to **** them. I also remember you neutral dumping your Auto too.
You never take the blame either. Its always something else's fault.

I may have blown a diff up, but at least I can acknowledge that it was from pure abuse.

I know I blew one from abuse.

Either way this is nor what the discussiOn is about.

This is just me posting research on an alternative trans and being shot down by dave who has turned into an uptight troll. Sorry DAve bit read your post history. You're coming across as a dick.

Ben I expected better from you. I thought you were open to new ideas. Nice way to show support.

I know I blew one from abuse.

Either way this is nor what the discussiOn is about.

This is just me posting research on an alternative trans and being shot down by dave who has turned into an uptight troll. Sorry DAve bit read your post history. You're coming across as a dick.

Ben I expected better from you. I thought you were open to new ideas. Nice way to show support.

I'm open to new ideas, just not ideas that are a dead end. How do you know the open diff in these 6sp boxes are stronger?

Most of the cars you have listed "Toyota Avensis, Toyota Corolla, Toyota RAV4, Mazda6, Mazda5, Mitsubishi Eclipse, Mitsubishi Grandis" are cars not likely to be abused daily.

Seeing as these boxes are built for the same sort of application as a Magna, I dont see them lasting longer than an equivalent magna diff/gearbox.

The only upside it seems to a 6sp box is the extra gear and the (unsubstantiated) stronger diff???

Club3g and club4g are your friend. Ive been looking for a broken diff report on a f6mba all week with nothing found. Includes boosted ones.

I want to do something ASAP. Not sure if you've been in my car lately but every time I alter load I get clunk, idling I can hear the shaft bearings. Need to do something before she goes pop.

Third Genners - keep your rubbish out of our section (not the research!).

Speaking of research, I managed to get a quote...

$1575 USD delivered for:

- 2006 Transmission (with mounts)
- Shifter assembily
- Shifter cables
- Concentric slave cylinder
- Pedals
- Clutch master cylinder

Speaking of research, I managed to get a quote...

$1575 USD delivered for:

- 2006 Transmission (with mounts)
- Shifter assembily
- Shifter cables
- Concentric slave cylinder
- Pedals
- Clutch master cylinder

That sounds like a damn good price!

I've found about six for sale in the US, ranging from $800 to $1,300 US (depending on age and mileage), but that's without all the extra bits & pieces or postage.

How many miles on the one you're looking at?

Are you looking to fit it to a 6G75 or 6G74?

I'm looking at mating it to a 6G74 in a TH Magna. 51457 miles.

I can't afford it atm due to lack of job so here is the listing: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280731738556&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:MOTORS:1123

He wanted 1100 for all the bits, and 475 for postage.

Go for it 380Man lol

Some quick driveline calculations make for some interesting maths - 2000rpm @ 100km/h in 6th gear :) 3000rpm @ 140km/h in 6th gear :)

Only he does not have the slave cyl available, I have also contacted the same people about this, was able to get a slightly better quote than above and have the flywheel and clutch kit thrown in as well, will most likely be purchasing this to put into my 380

If you're up for experimenting, the motor in this is very very similar to what I'm using in my car atm.

I'm looking at mating it to a 6G74 in a TH Magna. 51457 miles.

I can't afford it atm due to lack of job so here is the listing: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280731738556&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:MOTORS:1123

He wanted 1100 for all the bits, and 475 for postage.

Thanks mate.

I'm in the same boat as you, can't afford it at the moment.

Due to a sudden surge of kids' expenses - school, dental, medical etc - not lack of a job!

But down the track one day I'll consider it, which is why I'm keen to see if it will work & what's involved to make it work.

So the coast is clear for you Mal, I won't be outbidding you on this one.