I'm forever posting on this forum about audio in the car, but this time I'm not having any problems. :happy:

I do however, want more Bass. I've only got a single Kenwood sub powered by a Pioneer amp running with some Clarion 6 x 9's running off the headunit

I do not want to spend more money on "better" subs and what not.

What are my options for increasing the levels of bass in the car?
And before someone posts it, sound deadening, how effective is it at improving the bass?

Sound deadening, or improving the soundstage is everything. If the sub is in a sealed box, ensure it is in the optimum sized unit.

Do you want more low down sub-bass or more mid-range kick?

Sound deadening will generally improve the overall sound of your stereo but isn't designed to increase the amount of sound getting to your ears.
It will generally reduce the amount of panel vibration and road noise which means your speakers have less to 'compete' against.

I would play around with positioning of your sub if possible. Generally facing your sub towards the back of the boot will give more low down gain.
Try, if your amp/headunit is capable, to change the phase of the sub too. There may also be some cancellation happening between speakers.

As above, what's the box that the sub is in? Could be the first place to start.

Also box placement. As very vague advice, a generally optimal position for the loudest volume at the driver seat is with the sub box on the left side of the boot, against the seat, firing backwards. Start there and tweak until you find a sweet spot.

Sound deadening will help to define the bass, but won't really add much to it's loudness. Refining the tuning may help you out but again I can't really say from in front of a computer screen.

Going back to sound deadening, if you can get a nice tight midbass punch from your front speakers it will do a lot to deceive your hearing into thinking there is a lot more bass than their really is.

This thread needs pics.
Better tell the boys what box you have.

http://www.jbhifionline.com.au/rkt/MEDIUM//43/83/4383005.jpg

and amp http://www.pioneer.com.au/au/products/25/29/182/GM-3500T/specs.html

:SH00T turns box over looking for a port:
Gives up, is it ported.

:SH00T turns box over looking for a port:
Gives up, is it ported.

made me lol

however, it isnt :(

Specs of your equipment please, primarily to allow us to see whether your amp is powering your sub to its potential.

Have you matched the gains on the amp to your HU? It may be that the gains aren't appropriately set. Note that the gains are NOT a volume control.

The other thing to try is to disconnect your 6x9s. There is some frequency overlap between what your sub is playing and what your 6x9s are doing. You want to make sure you're not suffering from frequency cancellation.

Can anyone recommend a ported box for this sub, if the wind blows the right way, you just might double the volume.
That is, hopefully, a 3 db increase. Doesn't sound like much hey.

Looks like I just missed you listing your gear.

Unless I am mistaken, your Kenwood sub is rated at around 400rms.

Your Pioneer amp is rated at 185rms when bridged and at 14.4 volts.

It would appear that your amp is not sufficiently rated to power your sub to its potential.

Going with a ported enclosure may give you more output (sealed enclosures are more power hungry, all else being equal), but I'd rather attack the source of the problem - amp is not powerful enough.

what would be an amp that could sufficiently power the sub without breaking the bank to much?

just to to power the sub, nothing else.

You could google the sub model and try and get a recommended ported box size with a correctly sized port, you may lose a little quality, but you will get more bass volume.
Or you could make a box.

what would be an amp that could sufficiently power the sub without breaking the bank to much?

just to to power the sub, nothing else.

It is a misconception that an amp's power rating must not exceed the power rating of the sub / speaker.

Provided the gains are appropriately set, I prefer to have a higher power rating in my amp, compared to my speakers. This gives you more "head room" and allows you to run lower gains, therefore reducing system noise and the chance of clipping.

In plain English, more head room means your amp isn't working as hard to deliver a clean signal. Better sound and less chance of your gear going bang.

In terms of a budget amp, you will want a Class D monobloc. They are perfect for driving a sub and are excellent on the dollar vs power ratio.

I would look at something like this:

http://www.soundmaster.com.au/Kenwood-KAC-9105D-Performance-Series-Class-D-Mono-Power-Amplifier/KAC9105D.asp

For $289, that will be one of the cheapest 900rms of power you can buy from a half decent brand. Sure, Rockwood, Boss Audio et all offer 5000 watts+ at that money, but unless you wanted an unintentional smoke machine in your car, I'd avoid them ;)

check this shit out, in your boot theres a vent for your doors.. block it off.. or put a one way valve on it... so it lets air into the boot, but not out... it will hold pressure in your car... and let air in.. sub your subs have something to push... i know that sounds full on, but it seems to work

You are treading into some unknown territory here.
Firstly, kenwood wont make an entry level woofer that needs a shed load of power to run. I'd guess an entry level woofer like that will make a lot a noise with the type of power produced by their their entry amps, that is about the same as what you have now.
You could spend 300 on an amp and only see a very small inprovement.
They only way to know this for sure is to find an honest kenwood dealer.
It is also quite possible the box is holding you back, the placement, the settings on the amp, there are many things that will effect volume greatly, for instance, my 600 Watt woofer in a slot ported box with 380 RMS was louder than the setup I have now, 1200 WRMS and a sealed box. (I miss that box).
Get in to a dealer, take your woofer in, try out higher power amps, and better boxes. Or similar Subs in ported boxes in your car.

Shoot makes a good point, in that there are no guarantees.

Having said that, I'd be very surprised if a sub rated at 400rms in a sealed enclosure, didn't play louder when fed 900rms (with gains appropriately set), compared to 185rms.

I'd follow up on Shoot's suggestion. Go into a dealer, tell them you're interested in upgrading to amp X, but just want to make sure it will make a difference to your bass performance. Ask them to test it out and if the performance meets your expectation, you know where your system weakness is.

I should add that I've personally upgraded a friend's set up, which was quite similar to yours - entry level Pioneer sub rated at 400rms getting 150rms from a Pioneer amp. Replaced the amp with a 500rms monobloc and kept everything else the same (enclosure type, positioning etc) and the difference was like night and day.

I just looked up the sensitivity rating of Kenwood's entry level subs and they're low - 82db. Compare this with some entry level Pioneers at up to 95db. My money still says power (or lack of it), is probably the issue.

Interestingly.
It could well be a 90 dollar box may double his volume.
It could also be that krakaos' bridged amp, (if, in fact it is bridged) would suggest the woofer is 4 ohm, so the Kenwood 500 WRMS @4 ohm amp may also double his volume, for a mere $289.00.
You see the delima.
There is never enough information.......

Interestingly.
It could well be a 90 dollar box may double his volume.
It could also be that krakaos' bridged amp, (if, in fact it is bridged) would suggest the woofer is 4 ohm, so the Kenwood 500 WRMS @4 ohm amp may also double his volume, for a mere $289.00.
You see the delima.
There is never enough information.......

The reason why I don't think it's the box design or size is that the image the OP uploaded suggests that it's a pre-fab box and sub combo.

Being pre-fab, you would think (hope!) that Kenwood would get the box design and size correct!

Having said that, you're right in that it's difficult to diagnose in a vacuum. All we can do is offer a process of elimination - hopefully with the easy (and cheap) suggestions first!

This thread needs more pics, in particular, the wiring of the amp, especially noting wether the sub speaker wire, is connected to the positive of one pair of the speaker terminals, and to the negative of the other pair.
Is the HP/Off/LP button set correctly. Where is the LP cutoff set.
Does the head unit have a Sub out? It sounds like its off the front RCA'a, Have you used the High pass filter.
There are lots of little tricks to make sure the amp makes the power you need only where you want it.
Also who installed the Pair.
A picture says a thousand words.
These are things we need to clarify, before you go spending any money.

Lol there's a lot of theorizing going on. I will clarify some of it right now.

He WILL get louder from a ported box, between 2-3x louder if done properly.

He WILL get louder if he goes for the bigger amp, again somewhere in the range of 2-3x louder if done properly.

I am going to assume he is currently putting out about 125db.. With a ported box and 500+ wrms going in, there is no reason it couldn't be pushing upwards of 136+db.

If he buys the amp in the for sale section for 200, he could a get ported box or make one, for the same money as the new amp.


Edit

Oh damn thar amp was 300.......
Make a box....

the amp is bridged how it was shown and said in the manual.
the filter on the amp is set to Low.
it is a pre-fab box.
the original stuff was installed by the dudes at JB (the contractor, wouldnt let them touch it) and when it sh!t itself, i simply swapped everything over.

think that covers all the questions from overnight

and there is no sub out on the headunit that i know of (Pioneer DEH-

Move the sub box to the rear right passenger seat - you'll be in heaven and it will cost you between zero and $10 for longer speaker wires.

My sub is a sealed 12" in a wedge shaped box. It sits behind the passenger seat on the floor. It doubles as a good foot rest for my 3 year old :D

Do Vic members have meet ups and someone knowledgable on car audio? If you aren't sure about wiring and configurations, get someone to inspect everything.
Use a test CD and 'tune' the gains, crossover and equaliser settings to make the most out of your system.
Also use a test CD to check various frequencies - you may find (like I did) that there's a big 'hole' in sound at a certain frequency, and repositioning the sub, tuning or something can fix it.
In my case I found that it works very well where it is, except that around 50Hz the rear view mirror vibrates too much.


Also - someone mentioned switching the phase of the speaker - if your head unit (or amp?) doesn't have this feature, then simply switch the speaker wires on the sub +ve to -ve and vice-versa - that's all that phase is - push versus pull.
If you're adventurous, drill a hole into the box and shove a port into it. Be prepared for a massive fail though :)

Just a few more ideas that I hope are somewhat original. :)

It also played on my mind, now that I am starting to see the emergance of the upgrade bug, to perhaps recommend the Response 4x100 Class AB Amp. Just using 2 Channels Bridged for a 350+ WRM sub channel, and then further down the track, to start running a set of splits, to take the Audio system in question to a whole new level.

He WILL get louder from a ported box, between 2-3x louder if done properly.

He WILL get louder if he goes for the bigger amp, again somewhere in the range of 2-3x louder if done properly.


why do you keep saying "2-3x louder" what do you even mean by that?

Two to three times louder..

Two to three times louder..

:/

10dB is what is generally considered to be perceived as twice the loudness, is this what you mean?

While not exact, 3db is the accepted standard for an increase of double the sound pressure at levels over 100db

I run the same sub with a bigger amp- 400wat rms and a custom sealed box made from the recommend specs from the kenwood web site. I find it kicks hard for a cheaper sub

I run the same sub with a bigger amp- 400wat rms and a custom sealed box made from the recommend specs from the kenwood web site. I find it kicks hard for a cheaper sub

Your honour, I rest my case ;)

Seriously bud, that box is tiny, when i first started with audio i had a KFC-W3011 in that exact box, its too small.

You need to make a larger sealed box, or study how to properly make a ported box, like Woob has already underlined various times, you can expect and increase of about 3db, which doesn't seem like much but it will be at least double what you have now. For that sub i would be building a box that is about 1.5cubes.

If you dont wanna spend the money on a better sub why would you wanna spend money on another amp or Sound Deadening???? I skimmed through this, didn't see any model numbers (mainly for the amp) but i did see 185wrms, now if this is the power you are feeding the sub at 4ohms you need to invest either in a bigger/ported box or an amp capable of more power.

It doesn't seem like you've done too much research so im not going to go out of my way to provide info on a suitable amp if you can't ring around some locals and/or check online.

While not exact, 3db is the accepted standard for an increase of double the sound pressure at levels over 100db

no, 3dB is what you theoretically get if you double the cone area, or double the power.

its not "double the sound pressure"

You are wrong champ. I am happy to admit with I am wrong if you can present me with a valid scientific case study with any kind of proof of your claims, but you won't need to dig far to realise you are wrong. I have dealt with this issue with a lot of people, a lot of times, Consulting with a lot of people a lot more experienced than me and I will be pretty damn shocked if it turns out we were wrong that whole time!

+3db give or take constitutes an increase of double the sound pressure and intensity. There is a mathematical equation to calculate it but I am stuffed if I know it.

The human ear perceives a double in sound volume at around the +10db mark, but is very frequency dependent! IMO the generalization of perceived sound intensity holds little credibility due to so many determining factors.

If I sat you down in a car and burped it at 130db @ 40hz, then burped it again at 140db, you would not say "that sounds like double the volume", you would think it is one hell of a lot louder than that! Sub bass is a great example of invalidating your point, as it is largely felt rather than heard, which eliminates the variable of different ears perceiving sound differently. Doubling cone area will 'double' sound pressure (ignoring other factors), as will doubling power, as will taking the pressure reading from half the distance from the source, or put another way.. Will increase the sound pressure by 3db.

I hope you appreciate the effort I went to to educate you on the matter.. I typed the whole thing on my iPhone:)

Just gonna throw my 2 cents in here. I agree with Woob who stated to go ported. I used to run 2 x 12" subs getting heaps of power. Now these were originally in a sealed box, probabaly around 2 cubs of space. They sounded really good and punchy. Now my mate at work who is really great with this stuff and is well known in the scene recommended to me that I should goported. He built me a box, it was big, around 4 cubes and my 2 x 12" subs were totally different. The box design, port size etc play a big part in the equation. The subs were tuned to 35 hz and really hit low. It was a massive transformation. Now I've redone it in my VR-X and decided 1 x 12" sub was heaps so we made a box to suit and it plays near as hard as the.two did before. It all comes own to box size/volume and port size/placement. If you wanna get loud, go ported. Again I am no expert but my buddy is the expert and he didnt lead me astray.

You are wrong champ. I am happy to admit with I am wrong if you can present me with a valid scientific case study with any kind of proof of your claims, but you won't need to dig far to realise you are wrong. I have dealt with this issue with a lot of people, a lot of times, Consulting with a lot of people a lot more experienced than me and I will be pretty damn shocked if it turns out we were wrong that whole time!

+3db give or take constitutes an increase of double the sound pressure and intensity. There is a mathematical equation to calculate it but I am stuffed if I know it.

The human ear perceives a double in sound volume at around the +10db mark, but is very frequency dependent! IMO the generalization of perceived sound intensity holds little credibility due to so many determining factors.

If I sat you down in a car and burped it at 130db @ 40hz, then burped it again at 140db, you would not say "that sounds like double the volume", you would think it is one hell of a lot louder than that! Sub bass is a great example of invalidating your point, as it is largely felt rather than heard, which eliminates the variable of different ears perceiving sound differently. Doubling cone area will 'double' sound pressure (ignoring other factors), as will doubling power, as will taking the pressure reading from half the distance from the source, or put another way.. Will increase the sound pressure by 3db.

I hope you appreciate the effort I went to to educate you on the matter.. I typed the whole thing on my iPhone:)

seeing as thats 6dB, not 3dB, I'll simply choose to ignore the rest of your post also.

please do some research before posting.

hang on, lets quote this:

" The constant unsureness in the answer to the question:
"How many dB is doubling a sound"?

Answer: Doubling means the "factor 2". What does doubling of a"sound" mean?
Twice the (sound) intensity we get by an increase of the (sound intensity) level of 3 dB.
Twice the sound pressure we get by an increase of the (sound pressure) level of 6 dB.
Twice the loudness feeling we get by an increase of the (loudness) level of about 10 dB."

so clearly, you're wrong. 3dB isn't "double the sound pressure" like you claimed.

Regardless, as most of the sub bass frequencies are felt not heard, and perceived loudness happens at certain frequencies that are heard, not felt, this thread is about bass and woofers, especially when driving,
or in car.
So its about sub bass, not full sweep up to 20k.
Research perceived volumes with sub bass
Also to clear a thing or two up, overpowering subs is a great way to get subs to perform, if they are well built sub, do this to cheap woofer and the voice coils are not long enough, nor rigid enough to stand this abuse. Your advise could cook another guys sub. The idea is good, safe advice. Its another members money.

Just another to one posted pdx's are cheekily rated at 100 wrms at 14.4 v, my 4 x 150 watt pdx also cheekily rated at 150 wrms at 14.4, but the nice people at alpine included a birth sheet stating 184 WRMS per channel. So research is key.
While I am not an expert in car audio, I've played with at least 6 systems in my cars and and variations of, and I work earn a quid selling audio, nice gear too, I'd be happy to recommend you something, take woobs advice, its well thought out, and he hasn't led any one stray yet, I have been watching for a while now, we just hang around to keep him on his toes.
Good luck with your choices, and by all means, check back if you feel the need before you commit.
Just remember a cheap sub in a good box, will sound better than a dear sub in a cheap box, happens every day. Its all in the math.

That is a captivating case study you present me with ammojammo. Was it the first link on the google search? And it's nice to see that your argument is showing consistent results.. Hang on double sound pressure being 10db just changed to double being 6db.. How odd!

Go do some real research or speak to an acoustic engineer chump.

Edit: apologies to the OP. this is going astray!

That is a captivating case study you present me with ammojammo. Was it the first link on the google search? And it's nice to see that your argument is showing consistent results.. Hang on double sound pressure being 10db just changed to double being 6db.. How odd!


I never said that?
is it your reading or comprehension that is failing you?

I said, and I quote.


:/

10dB is what is generally considered to be perceived as twice the loudness, is this what you mean?

which is correct,

while you stated, and once again I will use a quote.


While not exact, 3db is the accepted standard for an increase of double the sound pressure at levels over 100db

which is incorrect.

so, now that we've established this, I assume when you said:



He WILL get louder from a ported box, between 2-3x louder if done properly.

He WILL get louder if he goes for the bigger amp, again somewhere in the range of 2-3x louder if done properly.


you really meant to say


He WILL get louder from a ported box, between 2-3dB louder if done properly.

He WILL get louder if he goes for the bigger amp, again somewhere in the range of 2-3dB louder if done properly.

thank you for your time.

Apologies if I have misquoted you, it's difficult to keep trace on an iPhone.. But the matter stands..

As I said, go educate yourself on the matter, speak to someone in the know.. Not just a mate down the road who says he knows all about it, and see what you conclude from your journey. If indeed it comes back that you are correct then it seems I will be the chump and take the time to study the subject into even more depth than I already have over the last 9 years.

As a matter of fact, may I ask how you have concluded your results? Where your education on the matter has come from, and where your references were acquired from?

Apologies if I have misquoted you, it's difficult to keep trace on an iPhone.. But the matter stands..

As I said, go educate yourself on the matter, speak to someone in the know.. Not just a mate down the road who says he knows all about it, and see what you conclude from your journey. If indeed it comes back that you are correct then it seems I will be the chump and take the time to study the subject into even more depth than I already have over the last 9 years.

As a matter of fact, may I ask how you have concluded your results? Where your education on the matter has come from, and where your references were acquired from?

As a matter of fact, may I ask how you have concluded your results? Where your education on the matter has come from, and where your references were acquired from?

12 years of reading, research, and building things.

happy?

Lol, it seems after reading some very conclusive university case studies that I just got schooled! Apologies for the disagreement, my theory was right but my terminology was completely off regarding pressure and intensity :) I have me a hell of a lot of reading to do and a hell of a lot of people to educate on the matter lol.

What kind of stuff do you design and build?

so I think what we've established is that a ported box will make it louder, and more power will make it louder :p

Haha, yes, that bit still stands :)

All this talk of Improving bass with a Ported enclosure makes me want to build another 4th order bandpass..

My next rather substantial project is a 1/4 wave transmission line box for my theater room, it will double as a raised section for rear couches. Much study will be required to get that one right!

My next rather substantial project is a 1/4 wave transmission line box for my theater room, it will double as a raised section for rear couches. Much study will be required to get that one right!

do a tapped horn.

what frequency response are you aiming for?

I've done a horn, kind of after something a bit different, after a decent low end response but keeping it fairly linear without any noticeable peaks.

I've done a horn, kind of after something a bit different, after a decent low end response but keeping it fairly linear without any noticeable peaks.

what was the horn you've tried?

Wicked one

Wicked one

thats not a horn, its some "wave guide" thing that just happens to work most of the time, it was never properly designed.

F(Insert Crow Noise Here)K, Huge woofer boxes...... I'll stick to my XW500D thanks very much......

I was toying with the idea of a house wrecker, but I'll wait til we are in house.

Anyway, I think the OP is going to try a Kicker 400.1 on loan, to see what that does to his woofer. It'll pick it up a lot, just wont have the loaded BooM of a ported box.

My 2c, I also have an entry level pioneer that was giving fairly poor results. I brought a kenwood kac-7204 (that model number might be wrong, it's off the top of my head) but it fed about 500wrms to my sub which is rated at 150wrms. And I would say my volume is louder for sure. Like it took me by surprise and I actually jumped. I won't say how much louder because I don't have equipment to measure, and I don't want to get flamed for not enough research. But more power certainly meant more volume in my case. Or at least more perceived volume.
It could also be the sub is getting a clean signal as opposed the some nice dc voltage from clipping haha. I hope the OP reports back on his results for that kicker amp.

Dc voltage from clipping? Clipping just introduces square waves into the signal. You wouldn't get a speaker to move off a dc signal (apart from the initial connection).

Tbh from experience in both of those subs (assuming your pioneer was a 30x series and not one of those blue pieces of shit, the pioneer should out loud the kenwood significantly.

I think it might be the silver version of the blue piece of shit version. It was very cheap. And I was talking about the square waves, the top that's been chopped, is that bit dc, momentarily? Not going to push with what I was saying though because I wouldn't blame you for not wanting to stand up for your ideas twice in one thread haha. And I know that you know your shit Woob.
I know my sub was hitting on par with a mates Polk SRd2 which was interesting. Those kenwoods Should be able to get loud though.

Ah yeah I don't think pioneer has ever made a decent sub that doesn't have a black cone :P

I've never really considered it to be dc but yeah, essentially a square wave could be considered to be an alternating direct current

essentially a square wave could be considered to be an alternating direct current

the "alternating" bit is exactly what makes it AC though :p

Indeed but I see where he is coming from with the square wave holding peaks of current momentarily, no really making it dc power I know but it kind of immitates little tiny dc signals :)

sorry for the late reply guys about the kicker amp, been loaded up with stacks of homework to be done.

i gave it a go running the kicker amp and kenwood sub together, and it worked great together, even with the settings roughly tuned in.
after giving it a bit of run for two days i decided id make use of it for a while so i can enjoy more kick.

btw, i also visted an autobarn and found that they have ported boxes for $90 each, which seemed reasonable, but i think i might give making one a go first.

yeah it will never be proper dc, because its well, music. :) It was just a little idea i had about it.
Krakaos, good to hear a little more power helped. With the ported box if you have the tools available either at home or at school (presuming by homework you meant highschool work) it should be pretty easy to knock up, just fiddle with online calculators and have an idea what you essentially want in the end i guess. I'm making a sealed box in woodwork right now, and that doesn't really get much simpler. It's a fun excercise though.

i gave it a go running the kicker amp and kenwood sub together, and it worked great together, even with the settings roughly tuned in.
after giving it a bit of run for two days i decided id make use of it for a while so i can enjoy more kick.

So what's my prize? ;)

Good to hear you've got it sorted out. I wasn't surprised, given the relatively low efficiency rating of the sub and the small amounts of power you were feeding to it.

Before going ported, play around with the settings first, getting the crossovers and gains perfect. You may find that after a bit of tuning, there's no need to spend more money with another box.