One of the servos on my way to work has started offering E85 blend fuel. Can a 380 run on E85? There are all sorts of warnings so I just filled up with 98 instead. Got me thinking though, Anyone with experience running E85?

Try it out! Only way to know is to try!

If you try it will you damage a lot of things and will cost you hundreds to repair, there are several companies now offering conversions to upgrade your fuel system (hoses, pumps, injectors and computer tune), cost about $1800 on a TJ/KJ not sure what it would be on a 380, one day we might need to look at it but at the moment with the limited number of outlets the numbers don't stack up.

Bye bye 380 engine if you run E85. It can NOT run on it.

what you can run the e85 in it just burns a little quick i run mine fine on it

No need to change anything http://forums.evolutionm.net/alternative-fuel/570749-fuel-system-after-3-years-e85.html

Caminorey runs E85 in his car only thing is it does is throw up a check engine light for leaning in the front and rear banks

Sure, I use it frequently without exploding my engine. :)

Fuel usage goes from about 11L/100 to 14.5L/100 but since it's 20c/L cheaper than E10 it works out to a negligible overall running cost difference.

I believe the check engine light is only showing up lean during a cold start. I went for a spin to warm the motor up, then cleared the codes and drove for about 120km along the highway without it showing back up. Then it showed up the next day when I started it up to go to work.

There's no real upsides or downsides to using it other than to say you do. Also it does make your exhaust smell nice when running rich during warm up. lol

If you do decide to give it a go but get worried that the CEL is on all the time, just fill up with normal fuel again and after 100km or so it goes off on its own.

If you do decide to give it a go but get worried that the CEL is on all the time, just fill up with normal fuel again and after 100km or so it goes off on its own.

ie add about 15 l of 100% ULP, then you have (for a 65 l tank) 50 l @ 85% (ie 42.5 l of ULP and 7.5 l of ethanol) and 15 l of ULP or 7.5/65 which is "E11.5%"

Why not just use E10?

I'm not saying you should dilute E85 with ULP after 100km, I mean if you want to stop using E85 all together just fill up your next tank with whatever you normally do and the CEL will turn off after about 100km.

Still trying to find E85 locally

I have a doobeewhackie that can read and delete CEL's anyway so would like to give it a go

At the end of Nuwarra Road near Milperra there's a Caltex (I think?) which has flexfuel

I'm not saying you should dilute E85 with ULP after 100km, I mean if you want to stop using E85 all together just fill up your next tank with whatever you normally do and the CEL will turn off after about 100km.

OK - sorry I misread your post

At the end of Nuwarra Road near Milperra there's a Caltex (I think?) which has flexfuel

Nope no flex there

Ive heard the servo at kirrawee has it. Corner of Princes Hwy and Waratah St (Next to Toyota). I havent been there to confirm yet.

Cheers Ego might check it out next week

ie add about 15 l of 100% ULP, then you have (for a 65 l tank) 50 l @ 85% (ie 42.5 l of ULP and 7.5 l of ethanol) and 15 l of ULP or 7.5/65 which is "E11.5%"

Why not just use E10?

Not that this was the point Caminorey was trying to make..
But it's E85, so would be 42.5L Ethanol, and 7.5L of ULP.. and 15 L of ULP, so 42.5/65, or E65%..

Not that this was the point Caminorey was trying to make..
But it's E85, so would be 42.5L Ethanol, and 7.5L of ULP.. and 15 L of ULP, so 42.5/65, or E65%..

Agree I misread his post.

Also had the misconception in my head that E85 was 85% ULP, but of course I am wrong - it is 85% ethanol as you rightly point out

I will go back to kitchen and eat more humble pie :)

No need to change anything http://forums.evolutionm.net/alternative-fuel/570749-fuel-system-after-3-years-e85.html

Useful thread however note comments such as this


You're one of the lucky ones! I guess I am too in that my main issue has been the black tar gooey **** collecting on my injector tips, everything else is pristine

Here's a thread about an engine going pop for the same reason, I realise it was highly modified but never the less:
http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-engine-turbo-drivetrain/593075-mellon-racing-evo-head-mysteriously-lifted-culprit-has-been-found.html

Cheers Ego might check it out next week

I just looked at Caltex Website.

Here are there listed NSW Servos with e85.

Where can I buy Bio E-Flex?

Caltex will begin selling Bio E-Flex at 31 metropolitan service stations, increasing to 100 stations in 2011. In New South Wales, the fuel will be on sale at the following Caltex sites, from October 1, 2010:

MANLY, 86 Pittwater Road
GOSFORD WEST, 69-71 Pacific Highway
TEMPE, 775 Princes Highway
HEATHCOTE, 1403 Princes Highway
DRUMMOYNE, 191-195 Lyons Road
RICHMOND, 98 March Street
RYDALMERE, 309 Victoria Road
MOOREBANK, 216 Newbridge Road
CASULA, 646 Hume Highway
HAMILTON, 59-63 Tudor Street

Nice going to go down the coast on thursday might stop at Heathcote

I might check out the moorebank one again but last time there was no flex as it is round the corner from my build

There is one in Moorebank, it's hard to spot when everything else is normal fuel

unless you are going to get the whole fuel system and checked for possible areas of weakness, dont run E85 for a long period of time. It is known for E85 to eat through modern components which are designed for a much smaller amount of ethanol content

Sure, I use it frequently without exploding my engine. :)

Fuel usage goes from about 11L/100 to 14.5L/100 but since it's 20c/L cheaper than E10 it works out to a negligible overall running cost difference.

I believe the check engine light is only showing up lean during a cold start. I went for a spin to warm the motor up, then cleared the codes and drove for about 120km along the highway without it showing back up. Then it showed up the next day when I started it up to go to work.

There's no real upsides or downsides to using it other than to say you do. Also it does make your exhaust smell nice when running rich during warm up. lol

You might find that you're hitting fuel trim limits, or running out of injector capacity at high load; either of which could result in lean running which might, depending on the circumstances, have expensive consequences.

Nice going to go down the coast on thursday might stop at Heathcote

I might check out the moorebank one again but last time there was no flex as it is round the corner from my build

Confirmed..... Caltex has E85 and was 120.9 this morning when i filled up.

unless you are going to get the whole fuel system and checked for possible areas of weakness, dont run E85 for a long period of time. It is known for E85 to eat through modern components which are designed for a much smaller amount of ethanol content

This is the problem - ethanol is an awesome solvent. Low concentrations (E10) or short use of E85 won't be too much of a problem.

Using E85 for a long period of time in a car not designed for it will result in eating of seals, hoses and other componentry. And the link that was provided is not conclusive proof of anything - the EVO might use different materials in the fuel system compared to the 380. The EVO fuel system componentry may actually be designed for E85 (but the car not supposed to run on it for other reasons). Also, several other EVO drivers on the same forum reported black goop blocking injectors. Blocked or partially blocked injectors = lean = possible detonation.

I won't be going near E85.

Me too, long term effects on 380 fuel system and engine not known. Quote from RACQ in regards to the Flexfuel Commodores:

"For the flex-fuel Commodore, Holden introduced stainless steel fuel tanks and lines and different engine valves and valve seats. E85 compatible fuel pumps, hoses and fuel sender units are fitted. The engine management system can identify the amount of ethanol in the tank and adjust the engine management system mapping accordingly. "

Run it by means but I would be more than worried long temr.

Might toss a tank of E85 in the Pajero and see how it goes..:)

I am going to pop some in this week too on my way down the coast

Why would you bother with this stuff?

Would you run a cheap oil in your engine?

The car is not designed for it and there is a possibility of damage. :nuts:

sounds like oil company talk there knotched HAHAHAHAHAH

Ethanol is great in cleaning I aint going to run it long term and not a full tank so I will be right at the first sign of an issue I have my OBD II connected and also will be refilling with 98Ron after my coastal run

So anyone know octane rating on E85.. Does it have one..??

94-102ron

They do have it! I saw it there when I filled up today.

Ive heard the servo at kirrawee has it. Corner of Princes Hwy and Waratah St (Next to Toyota). I havent been there to confirm yet.

Just paid $1.65/L for my 98, Ily fuel prices.

So filled up with E85 no issues so far and exhaust smells not like exhaust

$1.19/L

You guys must think Mitsubishi used cigarette rolling papers for fuel lines or something. :nuts:

Why would you bother with it? Because it's fun and more interesting to me than putting a set of wack chrome 20s on my car instead.

You guys must think Mitsubishi used cigarette rolling papers for fuel lines or something. :nuts:

Why would you bother with it? Because it's fun and more interesting to me than putting a set of wack chrome 20s on my car instead.

Or they used rubber and plastics in components that arent designed for high ethanol for long periods?

Thing is, you cannot confirm that there is no risk in a stock 6g7x engine so lets stop promoting it until then.

The only positive i can see is that the compressions are general quite low in these engines so risk of pinking at high load is reduced. I wont be running anything other than 98RON in my renault with a 12.0:1 compression lol

only problem is it is sitting at 16.6L/100Kms HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

I will be going back to 98RON after this tank but already my ticking has stopped

Dave your car will have a knock sensor, The fact is it never runs at its best possible capacity at 12:1 comp anyway...

Dave your car will have a knock sensor, The fact is it never runs at its best possible capacity at 12:1 comp anyway...

huh? Capacity as in displacement?

Of course it has a knock sensor, but it isn't designed for fuel with a rating of 102RON. The high compression naturally makes the engine more 'picky' when it comes to fuel. It runs like a bag of shit on 95, and BP 98 seems to be the only fuel I have tried that actually makes it run and idle smoothly. Its a temperamental bugger.

further to this, I asked on another forum about use of E85 in a non-compatible car and the O2 sensor was mentioned. High amounts of oxygen as a by-product of ethanol can send the O2 sensor haywire. This probably contributes to the very high fuel consumption in non-compatible cars as well.

Agree with dave, i wouldn't touch the stuff just to save some money. I prefer to polute the environment a little more.

Uh huh. Of course performance and economy isnt 100% ideal seeing as the car isnt tuned for the fuel, but most of the increase in fuel usage is due to the lower energy content per litre, LPG style.

Also you're not saving any money. It's pretty much the same depending on the way you drive. I tend to go a bit harder on the car when on E85 because when your L/100 is already 14+ you might as well. So in my case I'm probably a few cents per tank down. :think:

Uh huh. Of course performance and economy isnt 100% ideal seeing as the car isnt tuned for the fuel, but most of the increase in fuel usage is due to the lower energy content per litre, LPG style.

Also you're not saving any money. It's pretty much the same depending on the way you drive. I tend to go a bit harder on the car when on E85 because when your L/100 is already 14+ you might as well. So in my case I'm probably a few cents per tank down. :think:

Do you run this in an E85 compatible car?

Do you run this in an E85 compatible car?

No, I only use it in my 380.

Have you checked the fuel system for corrosion?

No I have not. From my own research I made before I decided to try it out, I believe it will not affect my fuel system or any 90s+ car's.

But that's just my opinion. I'll let you know it my car suddenly catches fire though. I'll admit I was wrong if I am proven to be. :)

No I have not. From my own research I made before I decided to try it out, I believe it will not affect my fuel system or any 90s+ car's.

But that's just my opinion. I'll let you know it my car suddenly catches fire though. I'll admit I was wrong if I am proven to be. :)

So the fuel system in any 90's - present day car is protected against the high amounts of water in ethanol? I think not. I expect corrosion is a major worry in any car designed for only petroleum. Thats not an opinion, thats fact.

Nah, it's not fact. It's your opinion based on what you've heard or read.

You even say so yourself. 'I think not. I expect...' :io:

Well I have refilled from my e85 expedition.

got me 450kms (round the same as I normally get) but I drove like a grandpa and did a nice big highway run
no ticking from the injectors!

Would I do it again?? maybe in 6 months time

No CEL's BTW!

You said you didnt use a full tank though right? When I was working my way up I think I got to about 75% E85 to 25% E10 before the CEL came on. ;)

yeah about that

Have a look at the last page in your user manual, it tells you exactly how ethanol you can run in a 380

Have a look at the last page in your user manual, it tells you exactly how ethanol you can run in a 380

Good spot Cory!

My manual says, quote:

"Ethanol (Gasohol)
A mixture of 10% ethanol (grain alcohol) and 90% unleaded petrol may be used in your vehicle, provided the octane rating is at least as high as that recommended for unleaded petrol.
CAUTION
Do not use more than 10% concentration of alcohol by volume. Use of more than 10% concentration may to lead damage to your vehicle fuel system, engine, engine sensors and exhaust system.

Good spot Cory!

My manual says, quote:

"Ethanol (Gasohol)
A mixture of 10% ethanol (grain alcohol) and 90% unleaded petrol may be used in your vehicle, provided the octane rating is at least as high as that recommended for unleaded petrol.
CAUTION
Do not use more than 10% concentration of alcohol by volume. Use of more than 10% concentration may to lead damage to your vehicle fuel system, engine, engine sensors and exhaust system.

The POM was right!

Apparently i was only expressing an opinion, not fact :|

Unless a car is explicitly designed and built for E85, only use it occassionally or you will find fuel pissing all over the road.

Yeah my car catastrophically failed when I used more than 10%

Wow, really. I never thought to check out the owner's manual. :eh:


Apparently i was only expressing an opinion, not fact :|

Unless a car is explicitly designed and built for E85, only use it occassionally or you will find fuel pissing all over the road.

Oh yeah, like the Evo that did however many thousand miles exclusively on E85 with no modifications to the fuel system bar injectors for performance. Likewise with the Chevy Tahoe which did 100,000 miles on the stuff.

The problem with E85 is that 95% of the information about running it in a normal car is posted to the internet by strangers with no credibility. That goes for advocates and critics.

You can keep quoting the manual but of course Mitsubishi dont recommend it because it has not been tested, and the average person wouldnt understand why fuel usage goes up 20% and what the signs of rough running or whatever would be, if the specific car didnt take to it well. Mitsubishi also don't recommend installing 20 inch wheels or superlow Pedders suspension. :doubt:

Are you familiar with Murphy's Law of Research? Enough research will tend to support your theory. So if you decide you don't like E85 before you even start looking... well you might just find what you're looking for.

When my old corolla had tainted fuel I had to run a full tank of Metho to remove contaminates worked well after that!!

My car runs better after my 3/4 tank full of E85

No injector tick ATM. It is smoother and Econ is back to normal.

I am saying you should run it exclusively but once in a while aint going to kill it

Wow, really. I never thought to check out the owner's manual. :eh:



Oh yeah, like the Evo that did however many thousand miles exclusively on E85 with no modifications to the fuel system bar injectors for performance. Likewise with the Chevy Tahoe which did 100,000 miles on the stuff.

The problem with E85 is that 95% of the information about running it in a normal car is posted to the internet by strangers with no credibility. That goes for advocates and critics.

You can keep quoting the manual but of course Mitsubishi dont recommend it because it has not been tested, and the average person wouldnt understand why fuel usage goes up 20% and what the signs of rough running or whatever would be, if the specific car didnt take to it well. Mitsubishi also don't recommend installing 20 inch wheels or superlow Pedders suspension. :doubt:

Are you familiar with Murphy's Law of Research? Enough research will tend to support your theory. So if you decide you don't like E85 before you even start looking... well you might just find what you're looking for.

Sorry, but what has an evo or a bloody chevy got to do with it? There are hardly any similarities between those two and a 380/Magna.

Neither were designed for E85 but both run well on it and the fuel lines have not disintegrated and the engine has not exploded. They're very good examples of E85 being used in non-flex fuel cars with no disastrous consequences. Regardless of them not being 380s (I never mentioned Magnas) they are two modern cars with ethanol resistant components.

At least I am using E85 related vehicles and not talking about my meh tier Renault that doesnt bring any relevant information to the conversation.

If you arent even going to be sensible anymore and just pick out tiny bits of my posts to fight about then I will stop replying. :tired:

Caminorey,


Are you familiar with Murphy's Law of Research?

Are you familiar with confirmation bias?

It's when something works out okay a few times, or in the short term, and you use that to justify there being no degradation or long term effect.

Sort of like driving down to the shops at 200km/hr a few times and not crashing, and assuming that means it's fine and safe to do every time. The only research that would confirm the 380 is safe on E85 would be to drive 3 or 400,000km exclusively on E85 and then performing a full tear down and chemical analysis of fuel system components compared to new parts. That's research - not reading about a few different cars on the internet or running E85 for a few months in your 380.

It appears that the only concrete "research" and "fact" we have on the 380 is that it can throw a light for lean banks. You haven't researched the actual reason for this light, and as far as we know it may be an accurate indication that you are running cylinders lean and damaging your engine (perhaps because of injectors which are partially blocking). To not look into this further and find out whether it is running lean, is probably simply a risk that the majority of forum members aren't prepared to take with their car. That's probably why you find they are fairly critical.

Even if it was found the 380 was unaffected by E85, the very fact that Mitsubishi state a limit of 10% may well mean they could avoid warranty obligations. When the cost to my pocket per km is unchanged compared to unleaded, I won't be potentially throwing a 10 year drivetrain warranty out the window.

I hope you take this the right way, it's completely your choice and I wish you all the best with your E85 experiment and hope it works out well. Pity the 380 production got shelved, because if it was still around now it would surely be E85 approved now... If Holden engineers can do it, it can't be that hard :io:

Yeah, I know what you mean. I didnt really come in here to tell everyone to start using E85 because there's 100% no way that it's going to damage your car, I just came to share my experience and explain what I have learned from my theoretical and practical research. I just tend to get frustrated when some people come in and try to debunk your theories without any personal knowledge or experience and end up sidetracked trying to explain something not really related.

Of course the whole idea behind the 10% limit in the manual is so that if I did dissolve my fuel lines I couldnt hit up Mitsubishi for a new, non-melted car. I understand and since I bought the car second hand I didn't get the 10 year drivetrain warranty anyways.

I tried to make a point of E85 not being cheaper, therefore not very useful to the average person's 380 unless they wanted to use it for fun or whatever.

That's the only reason I'm doing it, for my own personal amusement and knowledge. And I'm going to keep doing it. Nobody else has to, but if anyone is curious my original posts in this thread detail how it's been going for me. (Y)

OK, I'm no fan of the reason d'etre for e85 (I'm a gold plated man-made global warming skeptic and non-believer in 'peak oil'), but I've heard a few reports that a couple of tankfuls will cure the annoying injector ticking noise that I'm sure has plagued me for the last two years. And Wazza reckons it cured his tick.

So, needing to fill up tonight, and spying an e85 sign just as I neared my local United petrol station, I thought 'why not give it a burl', and I filled up with e85.

Asked the console operator what its RON is, he said "91", but he seemed to have no idea really.

Searched the United Fuel website and no clues there either.

My Chiptorque Xede is tuned for 98 RON and the AFRs are leaned out a bit, so if the car starts to run oddly or poorly I'll immediately pull over and put the bypass plug in, which sets the tune back to stock designed for 91 RON and 'rich' AFRs.

I can't see that one or two tankfuls now and then is going to do serious or permanent damage.

I'll report back how I go.

KJ.

First update on my e85 experiment.

Only about 100ks since I filled up with e85, all stop start peak hour driving, so way too early for definitive results.

But:

Will not start from cold without a hassle, stalls/conks unless I give it few revs, right as rain after about 30 seconds. Never had this problem before.

Fuel economy is shite, around 19l/100k, when the worst I ever got running 98 around town was about 14l/100k.

Seems to have significantly more poke than it had before, especially in the mid range.

No change to the ticking noise yet (which I think is injectors), and that's the whole point of this experiment, to see if e85 gets rid of the ticking noise. But probably way too early yet for it to have made an difference.

No new errors codes (I thought with the cold starting hassles I might have a new one or two, but nothing).

If the cold starting problems piss me off too much I might stick the piggyback blanking plug in and see what difference that makes if any.

Did some research on e85 RON and it's all over the shop. Some reports say 94-96, some say 99-100, others say 103, others say up to 107, although it seems that 107 is the RON for pure ethanol not e85.

So who knows what RON the United e85 is, but I'm guessing it's around 100 judging by the improved mid range poke.

KJ.

Interesting results, thanks for posting.

I have not experienced the cold starting issues you're having, even after several consecutive tanks and sitting for a week mine fires back up as normal.

Additionally my car seems noticeably slower when pushed (although regular drivability is unaffected,) whereas you say yours is more powerful.

I figure this is probably your piggyback at work, however the octane rating does depend on the fuel it's mixed with to start with. I'm using Caltex E-Flex, perhaps United is more performance oriented rather than environmental nonsense that Caltex is using as their selling point.

Interesting results, thanks for posting.

I have not experienced the cold starting issues you're having, even after several consecutive tanks and sitting for a week mine fires back up as normal.

Additionally my car seems noticeably slower when pushed (although regular drivability is unaffected,) whereas you say yours is more powerful.

I figure this is probably your piggyback at work, however the octane rating does depend on the fuel it's mixed with to start with. I'm using Caltex E-Flex, perhaps United is more performance oriented rather than environmental nonsense that Caltex is using as their selling point.

Cam, I reckon you are right.

Stuck the blanking plug in this morning before starting the car, no change, still was a pig to start.

Started it up again a while ago to go home (with blanking plug still in) and hey presto not a problem, started perfectly & ran like a dream!

The starting hassle sounded & smelled to me like it was running way rich, and I mean really stoopid rich.

I can only guess it was the Xede or the combo of the Xede and the stock ECU over-compensating for the e85.

KJ.

Running high octane alcohol fuel such as this will over time burn your valves out, the burn temps are higher. Article by RACQ might help: http://www.racq.com.au/motoring/cars/car_advice/car_fact_sheets/e85_fuel

Anyone can increase the RON just pour water in your tanks and you'll increase the octane rating.

Cam, I reckon you are right.

Stuck the blanking plug in this morning before starting the car, no change, still was a pig to start.

Started it up again a while ago to go home (with blanking plug still in) and hey presto not a problem, started perfectly & ran like a dream!

The starting hassle sounded & smelled to me like it was running way rich, and I mean really stoopid rich.

I can only guess it was the Xede or the combo of the Xede and the stock ECU over-compensating for the e85.

KJ.

Good to know it's working better for you. I guess your Xede is too finely tuned for petrol only fuel to be able to adjust properly to the different requirements of the E85 in certain running situations. Have you felt any power difference with the standard ECU tune now? As I mentioned my car feels a tad slower.


Running high octane alcohol fuel such as this will over time burn your valves out, the burn temps are higher. Article by RACQ might help: http://www.racq.com.au/motoring/cars/car_advice/car_fact_sheets/e85_fuel

Anyone can increase the RON just pour water in your tanks and you'll increase the octane rating.

Um... Reading closely that article is assuming that the mixture is leaned out by 30%. In actual fact the 380 tries it's best to compensate by pumping more fuel in to keep the a/f ratio at it's programmed values, or at least as close as possible in the case of hitting the injector capacity ceiling. Of course the 380 isnt running at 100% ideal conditions to benefit from the cooler burn temperature of ethanol but one look at your trip computer confirms the mixture is richer.

And water in the fuel tank? I thought we were trying to talk seriously here for a moment. :tired:

Good to know it's working better for you. I guess your Xede is too finely tuned for petrol only fuel to be able to adjust properly to the different requirements of the E85 in certain running situations. Have you felt any power difference with the standard ECU tune now? As I mentioned my car feels a tad slower.


Maybe not!

Tried another little experiment this morning.
Started car from cold with blanking plug in, no probs started perfectly.
Removed blanking plug (reconnected Xede), expecting starting hassles to return, but no, started perfectly!
Shut it down and tried again, started perfectly again.
Went for a bit of drive, ran like a dream & fuel economy was better. Better fuel economy probably due to being a more cruisey drive, not being peak hour traffic.
Seems as though the combo of the stock ECU & Xede has now fully adjusted for the e85, just took some time.

Yeah I found when I had the E85 in once the ECU had settled in it was fine

I am going to fill up with E85 again today. I am running 98 ATM so another 3/4 of a tank wont hurt. just will make the ECU go spastic again

Good to know it's working better for you. I guess your Xede is too finely tuned for petrol only fuel to be able to adjust properly to the different requirements of the E85 in certain running situations. Have you felt any power difference with the standard ECU tune now? As I mentioned my car feels a tad slower.



Um... Reading closely that article is assuming that the mixture is leaned out by 30%. In actual fact the 380 tries it's best to compensate by pumping more fuel in to keep the a/f ratio at it's programmed values, or at least as close as possible in the case of hitting the injector capacity ceiling. Of course the 380 isnt running at 100% ideal conditions to benefit from the cooler burn temperature of ethanol but one look at your trip computer confirms the mixture is richer.

And water in the fuel tank? I thought we were trying to talk seriously here for a moment. :tired:

If we are trying to be serious we would actually be running this "experiment" properly including checking for the likely damage that will inevitably be caused to valves by running the car lean. Folks this isn't like running a different set of tyres or oil brand, this is messing with carefully calibrated fuel systems designed to ensure the best mix of performance/economy/engine life on a given fuel type. Given it cost GM several millions to do this to their fleet what makes you think a 380 is going to be better off with this fuel. The OP posed the question is it OK, the simple answer is no one knows, as we haven't had heads taken of to see if any damage has been caused. We already know the cars don't run better, have we had dyno figures yet?

As for water in the tank maybe not but water injection has been used since before WW2 to reduce lean burn increase RON and cool valves.

Ernsyp
No matter you say it is not going to make an IOTA of difference to the fact its in my tank
my ticking is gone
the ECU will push a tonne more fuel in to compensate and Caminorey uses it at a higher dilution level than I do

A ton more fuel? How will it do this? I'd seriously love to know. I take it your still running a standard fuel pump standard injectors and standard valves I can't see how you can get more fuel in, is the computer mapped to keep the injector open longer? In which case is the air flow going to increase as well to burn the additional fuel? I'm all for suck it and see approach but I can't see that this whole exercise has any merit at all other than to ultimately kill some motors. It is amateurism gone mad and I think is an interesting reflection of the lack of in depth research that goes into some experimentation with our cars. Could I suggest them that maybe you add some earth straps as well because these have been proven to help performance..... by some now banned ex-members.

If my engine dies

So be it.
I have used it 2 times total. And not at full dilution.

Considering my Fuel Econ increases when I use E85 with a 1/4 -1/2 tank of 98Ron Premium I suspect the ECU increases the amount of fuel into my engine that seems pretty self explantory to me.
Its not that I dont value your opinion but it is a bit late for me, Tree and Cam. We know the risks.
And as I said earlier my corolla had a bad batch of fuel (which had water in it) and had to run a full tank of METHO thats right METHO(which the Mechanic put in). RAN like #$%^&*(__*%$^(+__)(%^^$ but now runs fine.

Do I recommend others do it? No. They can do so at there own risk.

Still no CEL either


Massive LOL at the earth straps HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Now it makes sense what is happening your using more fuel simply as a function of needing to put the foot down more to keep the same momentum going in your car. The metho trick is a old one, as methanol is known to absorb water and as the metho mixes with the petrol it can then be burnt through the motor. Methanol will mix with the petrol unlike water which separates.

A ton more fuel? How will it do this? I'd seriously love to know. I take it your still running a standard fuel pump standard injectors and standard valves I can't see how you can get more fuel in, is the computer mapped to keep the injector open longer? In which case is the air flow going to increase as well to burn the additional fuel? I'm all for suck it and see approach but I can't see that this whole exercise has any merit at all other than to ultimately kill some motors. It is amateurism gone mad and I think is an interesting reflection of the lack of in depth research that goes into some experimentation with our cars. Could I suggest them that maybe you add some earth straps as well because these have been proven to help performance..... by some now banned ex-members.

Seriously...

The reason GM spent millions is because they wanted the car to be optimised on the fuel, not to just work. Our cars just work, but they work well enough to keep from damaging itself.

I dont see the difference between using E85 compared to other performance enhancements which also increase the amount of fuel... The car doesnt come from the factory in a state that 100% maxes everything in the fuel system at full throttle. There is some reserve capacity and we're taking up a bit more of that.

I think the way you believe that we're going to end up 'killing our motors' is an interesting reflection of the lack of in depth research that goes into some of the posts in this thread that search 'E85 is bad' into Google and obviously get what they wanted to know. If other posters in this thread are to be believed, then my fuel lines will turn to dust in literally seconds from this posting, therefore stopping me from burning out my valves irreparably. Guess it's like a built in safety mechanism. :eh:

yeah that metho was a fun couple of days

I hope that I can one day in the future convert the 380 to Flexfuel. I have looked into a conversion kit from the US and one from AU.

http://www.e85conversionkit.com/catalog.htm

http://www.flexfuelkits.com.au/choosing_a_kit.html

no where do they say there will be a need for rubber or seals to be replaced.

This will be my next engine mod.

so I can get this on the boot

http://www.hybridsuv.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/flex-fuel-logo-badge.jpg

Any reason why you should want to run E85 in any car? The amount of fossil fuel energy needed to make the ethanol makes it pretty useless as a way of conserving said fossil fuels.

IF I had a 380, I'd just run whatever the factory recommends.

Seriously...

The reason GM spent millions is because they wanted the car to be optimised on the fuel, not to just work. Our cars just work, but they work well enough to keep from damaging itself.

I dont see the difference between using E85 compared to other performance enhancements which also increase the amount of fuel... The car doesnt come from the factory in a state that 100% maxes everything in the fuel system at full throttle. There is some reserve capacity and we're taking up a bit more of that.

I think the way you believe that we're going to end up 'killing our motors' is an interesting reflection of the lack of in depth research that goes into some of the posts in this thread that search 'E85 is bad' into Google and obviously get what they wanted to know. If other posters in this thread are to be believed, then my fuel lines will turn to dust in literally seconds from this posting, therefore stopping me from burning out my valves irreparably. Guess it's like a built in safety mechanism. :eh:

Is it just me on this one I suspect a bit of Trolling going on here? I think in truth no one has risked their engines when the manufacturer has expressly outlined what might and probably would go wrong. I don't think I will bother following this thread anymore. In fact I think Trolling like this should be banned and as clearly this whole subject has absolutely no technical merit what so ever it should be moved out of the tech section and into the members lounge. If not we should bring back the earth strap discussion as it has about as much merit as E85 has to a stock un modified 380 anyway.

Any reason why you should want to run E85 in any car? The amount of fossil fuel energy needed to make the ethanol makes it pretty useless as a way of conserving said fossil fuels.

IF I had a 380, I'd just run whatever the factory recommends.

I use E85 because I want to improve Australia's energy self-reliance. Regardless of energy balance which I've been reading about recently and varies from 1:10 output to input ratios to 36:1 depending on what's being used and who you believe, I feel that it is more important for part of my fuel to be produced in Australia rather than imported.



Is it just me on this one I suspect a bit of Trolling going on here? I think in truth no one has risked their engines when the manufacturer has expressly outlined what might and probably would go wrong. I don't think I will bother following this thread anymore. In fact I think Trolling like this should be banned and as clearly this whole subject has absolutely no technical merit what so ever it should be moved out of the tech section and into the members lounge. If not we should bring back the earth strap discussion as it has about as much merit as E85 has to a stock un modified 380 anyway.

Now I honestly dont know what you are talking about.

This experiment may not have been fully proven yet but it is not without technical merit and has been researched to what I feel is an acceptable level to be moved on to the practical stage. I did not simply put some in one day and find out it started and ran.

I feel like you're the one trolling here comparing legitimate research and testing to additional earth strap installation. If you've made your mind up about E85 then I welcome your departure from this thread as you're just making it harder to find genuine posts. :roll:

I use E85 because I want to improve Australia's energy self-reliance. Regardless of energy balance which I've been reading about recently and varies from 1:10 output to input ratios to 36:1 depending on what's being used and who you believe, I feel that it is more important for part of my fuel to be produced in Australia rather than imported.

Now I honestly dont know what you are talking about.

This experiment may not have been fully proven yet but it is not without technical merit and has been researched to what I feel is an acceptable level to be moved on to the practical stage. I did not simply put some in one day and find out it started and ran.

I feel like you're the one trolling here comparing legitimate research and testing to additional earth strap installation. If you've made your mind up about E85 then I welcome your departure from this thread as you're just making it harder to find genuine posts. :roll:

Please can you explain what research you have done to validate that e85 will not damage your car? I am genuinely interested. So far you have only claimed that e85 is safe in a 380 without explaining what you have checked from the fuel nozzle all the way through to the exhaust

The first thing I found which interested me was the video about the Chevy Tahoe with 100,000 miles on E85.

Then I found EvolutionM and the megapost about one user's E85 experience. They have an alternative fuels section mainly dealing in E85 so I lurk in there with a lot of other unmodified E85 users.

I also found this thread NASIOC (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341) useful for practical tests in modern cars, as well as other users slightly less detailed posts.

inb4 Subaru Imprezas are even further from 380s than Tahoes or Evos. You're right, but like I said they're all modern cars and have to be made ethanol resistant because durre10.

Apart from that there is a biofuels section on journeytoforever.org, and running_on_alcohol.tripod.com, e85performance.net are dedicated to the stuff. There are a bunch more if you know how to use Google. Also public libraries are cool. I dont have a card so I just hang out there for a while, and consequently I dont have any names of ethanol related books. To be honest I've been more interested in biodiesel rather than ethanol but since I have been looking into it I am growing more on petrol substitution.

I'm planning on buying a new vehicle that is a little more mod-friendly ECU wise for when I start home production, but it will be a little while away yet. I wont mention it because you already think I'm crazy enough.:facejump:

tl;dr - I havent totally disassembled my car and I dont plan to.

I want a Diesel 380SL easy as to covert to Biodiesel

Completely irrelevant but I ran a TJ on E85 for a year and the fuel pump/hoses in tank looked fine. A bit down in power under 2500-3000RPM (worse than normal that is)

Is E85 ok in a 380?

Short answer: No!

Is E85 ok in a 380?

Short answer: No!

We all know this except the OP who won't accept the answer which begs the question why did he ask?

This thread has gone around in circles about 5 times now.

If you read it in it's entirity it makes much more sense.

Want to make it six??

E85 in a stock 380 will melt the ceramic precats and lodge in the dummy center.

You will then need 4 x 02 sensors as well....inc the upstream units.

When the pressure builds up the seal around the flexible joint will blow out and you will limp home due to the knock sensor thinking there is a rod failure etc.

It will be very loud.

E85 in a stock 380 will melt the ceramic precats and lodge in the dummy center.

You will then need 4 x 02 sensors as well....inc the upstream units.

When the pressure builds up the seal around the flexible joint will blow out and you will limp home due to the knock sensor thinking there is a rod failure etc.

It will be very loud.

Melt ceramic??

Melt ceramic??

Sure. Anything over 1,768.4°C will melt the platinum. lol The ceramic will be ok, just the cat converter will not work anymore.

United fuel says:
E85 for Flex Fuel Vehicles

E85 is an alternative fuel that contains 85 per cent ethanol and 15 per cent petrol. The ethanol component, which is produced by United at its Dalby Refinery from locally sourced Sorghum Grain, offers consumers a range of benefits. This fuel is only suitable for Flex Fuel vehicles such as the new Holden Commodore

OK, I've now finished my little experiment with United e85.

I have to class it as a failure.

No change to the ticking noise, and other problems appeared.

Filled up with the second consecutive tank full of United e85 on Thursday night.

Drove to Coonalpyn & back last night, didn't miss a beat and used nearly all the tank, left about 15 litres.

Checked error codes this morning, whoa, two new ones:

P2177 & P2179.

"Too lean off idle front bank" & "too lean off idle rear bank".

Would explain the starting hassles which I thought had been cured.

Went to start it this morning and it simply didn't want to start or idle, had to give it 1500 rpm for about a minute before it would run without stalling.

Headed off to the Port, but didn't get far.

Stalled every time I let the revs drop under about 1200, not fun when you lose drive & power steering in the middle of a turn (happened three times).

Chucked a uey first chance I could & filled up with BP Ultimate at my local servo.

Has run perfectly since.

Checked error codes again (cleared them after the first check, before I had the starting & stalling hassles), expecting P2177 & P2179 to have reappeared, but no.

So at least in my 380, with a ChipTorque Xede piggyback ECU tuned for 98 RON fuel, I can say that e85 is not good.

The only good things about it were the price (about 30c a litre less than 98) and the slightly improved mid-range torque.

But the much reduced fuel economy cancelled out the cheaper price.

Won't be using it again.

KJ.

Sure. Anything over 1,768.4°C will melt the platinum. lol The ceramic will be ok, just the cat converter will not work anymore.

The ceramic core will melt and will cool in the shape of liquid lava lodged in the first thing it hits, the dummy rear cat and will not go any further, the precats will be completely flushed of all it's contents.

Good way to punch out your precats cats if that's what you seek.

It's amazing how many different ways people find to destroy a perfectly good 380. I salute their inventiveness.

(If you are concerned about having a deep seated desire to destroy things, don't worry - the feeling dissipates slowly as you age. lol)

"Is E85 ok on a 380?" The answer still is NO!!! The answer was such at post #1, still so at post #97. lol

The ceramic core will melt and will cool in the shape of liquid lava lodged in the first thing it hits, the dummy rear cat and will not go any further, the precats will be completely flushed of all it's contents.

Good way to punch out your precats cats if that's what you seek.

Ceramic cat cores generally melt when raw fuel is entering them and igniting on the hot surfaces.. If the 380 leans out when running on E85 I find it very unlikely the ceramic is going to be put under conditions that could lead to it melting..

United fuel says:
E85 for Flex Fuel Vehicles

E85 is an alternative fuel that contains 85 per cent ethanol and 15 per cent petrol. The ethanol component, which is produced by United at its Dalby Refinery from locally sourced Sorghum Grain, offers consumers a range of benefits. This fuel is only suitable for Flex Fuel vehicles such as the new Holden Commodore

Wow that is some amazing information and definitely brings an undiscussed topic to the attention of people in this thread. :nuts:



OK, I've now finished my little experiment with United e85.

I have to class it as a failure.

No change to the ticking noise, and other problems appeared.

Filled up with the second consecutive tank full of United e85 on Thursday night.

Drove to Coonalpyn & back last night, didn't miss a beat and used nearly all the tank, left about 15 litres.

Checked error codes this morning, whoa, two new ones:

P2177 & P2179.

"Too lean off idle front bank" & "too lean off idle rear bank".

Would explain the starting hassles which I thought had been cured.

Went to start it this morning and it simply didn't want to start or idle, had to give it 1500 rpm for about a minute before it would run without stalling.

Headed off to the Port, but didn't get far.

Stalled every time I let the revs drop under about 1200, not fun when you lose drive & power steering in the middle of a turn (happened three times).

Chucked a uey first chance I could & filled up with BP Ultimate at my local servo.

Has run perfectly since.

Checked error codes again (cleared them after the first check, before I had the starting & stalling hassles), expecting P2177 & P2179 to have reappeared, but no.

So at least in my 380, with a ChipTorque Xede piggyback ECU tuned for 98 RON fuel, I can say that e85 is not good.

The only good things about it were the price (about 30c a litre less than 98) and the slightly improved mid-range torque.

But the much reduced fuel economy cancelled out the cheaper price.

Won't be using it again.

KJ.

I am not surprised it didnt work out well for you. Your Xede is too specifically tuned to 98 to allow the switch. Rich AFRs ftw I say. lol



It's amazing how many different ways people find to destroy a perfectly good 380. I salute their inventiveness.

(If you are concerned about having a deep seated desire to destroy things, don't worry - the feeling dissipates slowly as you age. lol)

"Is E85 ok on a 380?" The answer still is NO!!! The answer was such at post #1, still so at post #97. lol

I find E85 works better in my 380 than on it, so I guess you are absolutely right.

Thanks for your feedback about my destructive tendencies too. I think it's pretty great as well. I think next I'm going install glow plugs in place of the spark plugs. The math indicates 5mpg gains! :learn:


Ceramic cat cores generally melt when raw fuel is entering them and igniting on the hot surfaces.. If the 380 leans out when running on E85 I find it very unlikely the ceramic is going to be put under conditions that could lead to it melting..

Indeed, this is highly unlikely to happen.

Instead of making a new thread for no reason i thought i would post here..
380 S1 Auto
Full tank of E85 (approx 10L 98 petrol left in tank)

After approx 50KMs of driving the (fuel trims) LTFT for Bank 1 was +23.44% and Bank 2 +24.22%
0-100 times were not affected by running E85

Asked my mechanic mate about this and he said its fine if you swap fuel lines to stainless steel or something but if not don't run it as it will stuff you lines up over time.

After approx 50KMs of driving the (fuel trims) LTFT for Bank 1 was +23.44% and Bank 2 +24.22%
0-100 times were not affected by running E85
What are the fuel trims with your usual fuel?

Bank 1 0.0% Bank 2 -1.44% with 98

I wonder what the AFR is like with E85 under full load.

Going by your fuel trim figures, im guessing the AFR would be off the chart. Dangerous territory at high RPM WOT. What would the stock pulse time on 98RON fuel for the 6g75 at low RPM? No matter what it is, +25% is a big increase over 98

The only solace you could have is that the engine design is to naturally run rich to maintain the right AFR.

Bank 1 and Bank 2 are now +24.22%
Engine light on (84kms since full tank) cleared codes (which also reset fuel trims) and about 20kms later Engine light on (fuel trims at 24.22%)

I assume the max fuel trim is 25% and once it hits it, it throws a lean CEL

Also it requires a little more accelerator pedal than before cruising around which in some cases results in dropping into a lower gear (obviously more acceleration)

(i will not be running E85 continually, I have my reasons for running a tank or two)


IF you ask anyone (Tuner... eg SKR) they would say you will need bigger injectors minimum and a bigger fuel pump + tune to run E85.
They will also most likely say there is no point running E85 unless you are running forced induction or a built/forged NA.



In summary, the computer is supplying as much fuel as it can and it is still not enough, performance (0-100) is about the same, requires a bit more throttle cruising around, its good a cleaning and absorbing moisture.

In summary, the computer is supplying as much fuel as it can and it is still not enough, performance (0-100) is about the same, requires a bit more throttle cruising around, its good a cleaning and absorbing moisture.

thats what I found

When I go back to 95/98 its like a new car so smooth