1st post, new to this forum. I went back thru several pages looking for 'not start' posts and didnt find any so here goes.

I have a y2000 TH. I am starting to notice a pattern of not starting after heavy rain. Sounds similar to this http://martybugs.net/articles/magna-stall.cgi - but its not stalling after starting, not starting at all. Just cranking and no fire, or it takes a long (minutes of cranking) to fire slowly at first, just one or 2 cylinders then get them poping and eventually can breathe life into it. Once started its fine. Normally starts just fine, no issues.
X After heavy rain
X Can smell fuel after minutes of cranking so there is plenty of that
X There is spark (mechanic put some spark tool on leads while cranking)
X restarts after the weather dries out

only just found that martybug post above so yet to try any of that out - will do next few days.

if there is any wisdom or expeirence out there it is very much appreciated

Does any water get into your engine bay? This stinks of distributor.

That car is a beauty. Yes it's a TH. I have the some car in the same colour.

On the issue:
I am no mechanic, not even a very experienced hobby carfixer but I did have some similar issue with an old car of mine.
It was a Seat Toledo in a really bad shape.
The idle was nearly gone, sometimes it took ages to start up (especially when rainy) and after not getting it fixed for a month it even stopped working on pacific highway on a rainy day. It took me ages to get it running again. I just stayed under a roof until It dried...Finally it started again (with the idle gone that time) and I was a happy owner for another few days until it stopped for good (on a sunny day that time for the first and last time)
It always had trouble sucking the air through the pipes (they were sucked in - flat - when the motor was running).
The idle was dodgy. It only was working when the engine warmed up.

it was my first car. Someone managed to rip me of and sell me a shitboiler

Anyways, I will get to the point now:

In my humble opinion, there are a few questions to ask before getting to work:

1, for How long have you had the car?
2, How much did you pay for it, and did you get it from ebay, gumtree, a dealer, friend..etc
3, Has it shown any other symptoms?
4, Is it giving out white or dark smoke?
5, odometer reading - service logs
6, Check oils & fluids to get a general idea of the cars condition - black thick trannie oil, black motor oil, funny coloured funny smelling cooling fluid will tell you a lot about the previous owner.

After thinking about all these you can decide if its even worth worrying about fixing your issue. It could be followed by several other problems if the car was not looked after.

Just my 2 cents

edit:
I would get an oil pressure test as well. I think that's a good test for the motors 'health'

On the issue:


Anyways, I will get to the point now:

In my humble opinion, there are a few questions to ask before getting to work:

1, for How long have you had the car?
2, How much did you pay for it, and did you get it from ebay, gumtree, a dealer, friend..etc
3, Has it shown any other symptoms?
4, Is it giving out white or dark smoke?
5, odometer reading - service logs
6, Check oils & fluids to get a general idea of the cars condition - black thick trannie oil, black motor oil, funny coloured funny smelling cooling fluid will tell you a lot about the previous owner.

After thinking about all these you can decide if its even worth worrying about fixing your issue. It could be followed by several other problems if the car was not looked after.

Just my 2 cents

Ummm..... What's any of that got to do with the car not starting??

Thanks for the replie. After posting I have brushed on on my search skills (more generic terms) and have been reading heaps of posts about 2 things which is sounding correct.
+ The the plug that connects to the ignition barrel, check that first
+ The cables under the dash near the BEM/ECU or whatever it is.

I had never heard of these being common on Magnas before today - (neither had teh mechanics id been to) so will give things a wiggle around those spots tonight.

If any of these things are beyond a wiggle/tighten fixing type operation then Id need to get someone who has done these things before to have a go.
Anyone know of any service/mechanics preferably in the North Sydney area who have experience in these things? A referral to experienced op will save me the round trips through spark plugs/leads/dizzi etc etc etc that Ive been through before. Thanks all for your input.

from the description of how this car starts, it sounds like its flooding, this can happen with dirty injectors, the seat in the injector gets stuck slightly open, and allows the fuel preasure to run in to the bore, effectivly flooding the car. my question is, is it hard to start each morning, reguardless of rain?

No - its very intermittent. usually starts within a few seconds. The intermittent nature seems to coincide with very wet weather - - just like Sydney is enjoying this week. Cheers

That car is a beauty. Yes it's a TH. I have the some car in the same colour.

On the issue:
I am no mechanic, not even a very experienced hobby carfixer but I did have some similar issue with an old car of mine.
It was a Seat Toledo in a really bad shape.
The idle was nearly gone, sometimes it took ages to start up (especially when rainy) and after not getting it fixed for a month it even stopped working on pacific highway on a rainy day. It took me ages to get it running again. I just stayed under a roof until It dried...Finally it started again (with the idle gone that time) and I was a happy owner for another few days until it stopped for good (on a sunny day that time for the first and last time)
It always had trouble sucking the air through the pipes (they were sucked in - flat - when the motor was running).
The idle was dodgy. It only was working when the engine warmed up.

it was my first car. Someone managed to rip me of and sell me a shitboiler

Anyways, I will get to the point now:

In my humble opinion, there are a few questions to ask before getting to work:

1, for How long have you had the car?
2, How much did you pay for it, and did you get it from ebay, gumtree, a dealer, friend..etc
3, Has it shown any other symptoms?
4, Is it giving out white or dark smoke?
5, odometer reading - service logs
6, Check oils & fluids to get a general idea of the cars condition - black thick trannie oil, black motor oil, funny coloured funny smelling cooling fluid will tell you a lot about the previous owner.

After thinking about all these you can decide if its even worth worrying about fixing your issue. It could be followed by several other problems if the car was not looked after.

Just my 2 cents

edit:
I would get an oil pressure test as well. I think that's a good test for the motors 'health'

sounds like something pretty simple mate.

If it only happens in wet weather, it's bound to be electrical.
Injectors are squirting, but no ignition, hence the petrol smell.

Check electrics - plug leads, connectors. Oil/dirt in the connector to the spark plugs, etc. Open the bonnet at night, get someone to crank the engine, and look for arcing on the distributor cap and plug leads. Could be a combination of things, a failing ignition coil and leaky high tension leads. Got a spare distributor and cap?
Check/wriggle the immobiliser connections too.

Healthy Magnas always fire in a second or two, if it doesn't, no point in cranking it longer. You will just flatten the battery or cook the starter motor.
You will just end up with another problem on top of the one you got now if you crank it for minutes at a time. lol

Thanks Madmax for that dont screw the starter too tip. While banging head against steating wheel in frustration very easy to forget what else may go wrong.

Addng another footnote to this. A couple times ~ a year or so ago while this problem was happening the NRMA gave me an attempted jump start - and it didnt start. Would appear to rule out the battery as the sole cause. Since then a mech replaced plugs/leads/coils? I think the battery was done about then as well.... probably killed it with all that cranking.

If only Mitsfix were in Sydney. Given the nature of these things its beyond my skills, its beyond 2 'good' mechanics Ive taken it to. I am reluctant to take it to the Mitsi dealer as they likely to start replacing things until it goes away. You cen see this in others posts about starting problems. " yeh mate ECU was cactus, ignition -gone, wiring loom was from a green magna, your paint is faded and the battery dead. On fixing all those things suprise suprise we fixed it, thats $2500 and thanks for coming .

Should I be happy or frustrated? Last night - wouldnt fire, no way. Went to her tonight with intention of ;
+ wigglng wires at back og ignigition barrell
+ prehaps recharging the battery
+ playing some Barry Manilow, buring some insence
.... and hello, perky as, starts first go, cranking was a bit slow thanks to last nights extended crankathon.

So no chance to determine whether the wires at rear of the ignigiton barrell or the block box were significant in the mix. Maybe its the Barry Manilow CD under my arm, have to carry that with me at all times.

mate i had a simular issue - it was a coolent temp sensor. However i wouldn't recommend jumping the guns and changing it as i had slightly different issues.

I would just try and unplug it and see if it turns over (its the bigger sensor, above the thermostat). Mine would smell like really had bad fuel when it didn't want to start (one in 10 maybe) and would sometime go into auto-choke mode etc. Big pain in the backside as i ended up changing starter motors, battery, throddle body and then Mal picked up that it was coolent temp sensor (wish i took it there to begin with!)

You say after heavy rain so can I ask are there any water leaks into the passenger compartment?

no, nothing that ovbious! :happy:

try the above next time the car doesn't start

So JAP_SPEC_TE - Just confirming. You suggesting just to pull whatever leads are connected to the bigger sensor, above the thermostat? Leave aside the chance of dry radiator / cooked engine - should I leave it off for a while to isolate the issue?

Is this the sensor you mention? how do you get the connection off? IS it on a thread or simply pull up?
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/20134208/IMG_0114.jpg

Like right above the thermostat there are 2 clips - the big one is the coolent temp sensor and the smaller one is just a receiver for the dash board.

They have just a standard clip on them - when i say disconnect it, i mean disconnect it (just pressing it in and lifting) and then crank the car, if it fires up, it means its that. If not and it still struggles (no change), connect it back and disregard my post :D

PS check engine light will come on once its disconnected, and both thermo fans will kick in. Turn the car off and then plug back in and it will return back to normal.

By no means do i say drive like that - but the ecu will automatically turn on both the fans if it disconnected so the engine doesn't cook :) My one was out of range and occationly done won't start and if it did - sounded terrible and had heaps of fuel pumped out too! Massive head ache and managed to fix it for a tiny $40, i walked away happy but at the time hated the car lol

Jap_spec. Thanks mate, I will give it a go..

While washing it yesterday I spied the broken aerial. The fixed aerial broke off some months ago but I still get good raido receiption so havent replaced the aerial. Was looking at the hole where the aerial used to sit, noticing that it would of course be full of water when wet ... Its appears to be a long shot that a wet aerial could interfere with ignitition but I am grasping at straws so will mention it. Anyone reckon that could even be a remote possibility ?

Does the aerial work? If water has got into the electrical system then it may be a very remote possibility that you have blown something. Check all fuses and get the aerial hole plugged up. The boot is a poor place for a swimming pool.

Q Does the aerial work?

A1 Radio gets adequate signal
A2 It doesnt leak - I assume that the bottom of the aerial mast is closed/sealed so there is no water entering the book - that I would have fixed ages ago.

Check in the airbox for residual moisture? Leave the filter out in the sun and allow it to dry out, replace if need be?

I think you are getting really mixed up here

The radio aerial has nothing to do with anything aside from your radio

The one mentioned in this thread is the one behind the ignition trim and has a single screw holding it onto the ig barrel lol

Q Does the aerial work?

A1 Radio gets adequate signal
A2 It doesnt leak - I assume that the bottom of the aerial mast is closed/sealed so there is no water entering the book - that I would have fixed ages ago.

It has a drain pipe, but it essentially sealed. the pipe drains right down to under the boot. Unless it has come off, but then again theres no electronics to fry in the boot....

Thanks Madmagna Appreciate your input but sorry I didnt understand "The one mentioned in this thread is the one behind the ignition trim and has a single screw holding it onto the ig barrel "

Confirming your advice. What action are you suggesting? http://dl.dropbox.com/u/20134208/ign.jpg
you are suggesting its the same as what martybugs posted - I think ?

"After a number of years of trouble-free motoring, the annoying stalling issue reared its head again! This time, I traced it down to a bad connection in the wiring to the antenna around the keyhole.

ignition barrel under the dash
1: antenna and keyhole lighting ring
2: antenna connector

The white ring around the keyhole is both a lighting ring (to make it easier to find the keyhole in the dark), and an ignition key antenna. The antenna is used by the Body Electronics Module (BEM) to communicate with the electronics inside the key, and if an appropriate signal isn't received, the BEM shuts down the ECU within seconds of the engine starting.

The wiring from the antenna goes through a connector mounted immediately below the steering column (identified as "2" in the photo above), and it was this connector that was causing the issues. Simply pulling this connector apart, then plugging it back together resolved the issue for me".

I'm going to try the coolant sensor on mine, it's doing similar at the moment, flooding almost every start. As it seems the fuel pump doesnt have its own fuse and the car is dual fuel, i've had to turn off the gas tank so I can switch to a source with no fuel in the line to start. Want it sorted by the weekend as both fuel and lpg cause flooding on cold and hot starts...

I think you are getting really mixed up here

The radio aerial has nothing to do with anything aside from your radio

The one mentioned in this thread is the one behind the ignition trim and has a single screw holding it onto the ig barrel lol

Yeah that was a bit of a long shot.

Long shots sometimes do come up trumps (ie water temp sensor have to be considered a long shot). Yesterday I removed the connection at #2 shown above, removed the aerial (blue arrow to screw) and reassembled it. We'll see whether that makes any difference.

Race51 - had you already tried these 2 steps? successful or not?
PS Mine too is dual fuel but Id already isolated that as the issue so wasnt worth mentioning, plus it starts on petrol, switches to LPG later.

Have you had the Body Control Module checked?

Race 51: Most any LPG setup probably starts on petrol then switches to LPG later, - after a customisable period so starting issues should be isolated to just a normal petrol start issue - However if your not starting because its flooding with both petrol and LPG (how can you tell?) then Id be looking at the LPG relay/switch - which is beyond my feeble skills - Id go to a LPG guy for. Good thing about the older systems is that they are less specialised than the newer computerised ones.

No - how do you check a Body Control Module ?? is that something the Mitsi dealer / service centre needs to do?
Been reluctant to take it to them for something which is interrmittant - & guaranteed not to offend whenever they try it. Mitsi & Holden share a service centre near me, you'd be suprised how many times it took them to solve a reverse sensor fail issue on my commodore. At least that was under warranty,

Tried the coolant sensor and no luck.. Would idle but that was it, would die as soon as the accelerator was touched. Might be good grounds for a 3.5L upgrade as the box is shuddering now as well.