So,we all hear of people swapping cams and swapping ECU's etc .

What i want to know is what happens to the drive ability, economy etc when you mix and match cams and ecu's that aren't necessarily matched for each other.

For example,l have a TH Sports (now Manual ) with the std auto ecu and #4 cams .

I will soon have a GTV ecu and want to plug it in asap,what happens when i do plug it in with the #4 cams ?

From my limited knowledge of supposed kw out put..147 in my TH ,a stock TJ is what 153 and the GTV (ala VRX ) 163 kw.

What would the GTV and Ralliart cams give approximately KW wise.

I do realize that all KW figures are subjective and variable ,but im only talking base figures for comparative sake.

Going the other way ,when i do put my Ralliart Cams in ,how will in run with say ,the std ECU, TJ ECU or the GTV one.

Is the best match for me bang for ya buck wise,to put in the Ralliart cams and run the GTV ECU without getting it re-flashed ?

Given that the J series ECU are re flashable, how much more better will it get ....



Thanks

Michael

As far as i know the tune makes minimal difference to how the car will run, the cam swap will still give like 5kw? The ralliart tune itself won't cost you anything so you can get that flashed onto your ecu by a fellow member.

From the ECU ROMs I've looked at, all the 6G74 ignition and fuel maps are the same from the TH onwards, excepting the Ralliarts.

From the ECU ROMs I've looked at, all the 6G74 ignition and fuel maps are the same from the TH onwards, excepting the Ralliarts.

So,the STD TH ecu is the same as the GTV one and its only the cams that are giving the kw increase...plus the exhaust changes.

So,the STD TH ecu is the same as the GTV one and its only the cams that are giving the kw increase...plus the exhaust changes.

Is the ECU plug and play between the models? I don't know why but i had a feeling it was a loom swap? This is something thats putting me off getting a TJ ecu and getting it tuned.

Maybe now the questions can be answered :D

Number 4 cams were the worst cam put into the magnas. 380 or ralliart cams over them will definatly be a nice gain. I used to have number 4 cams also in my TH sports and the cams were the best power mod I did to my magna. Top end power is a hell of alot better over number 4 cams also.

Is the ECU plug and play between the models? I don't know why but i had a feeling it was a loom swap? This is something thats putting me off getting a TJ ecu and getting it tuned.

TE/TF lack a barometric pressure sensor in the MAF, which the TH & onwards ECUs expect. This can be worked around, but its not plug and play.

The immobiliser issues are also an impediment to easy swaps, unless you're prepared to sacrifice the function.

Late TF ECUs may be reflashable - if the car has the reflashing connector fitted.

In my case, the KH (metal case) ECU was not flashable as while they have the same tune as the later ones, they are a Japan sourced item it seems and there is a chip needed to change any tunes on them.
SKR couldn't do it, so I simply sourced a later KJ ECU (Plastic case)

Plastic case ones are rarely in the TH series.

Mike

TJ onward ECUs are the easiest to flash that's for sure.

Mike. I have a spare TJ ECU here that you can borrow if you want to try one :)

Added some extra spark for premium, bit of extra fuel under load as they normally lean out like hell, and also moved the rev limiter. However, that is only going to run so well until you ditch those crappy 4 cams and get some 380 ones, then the above combo will fly! :)

TJ onward ECUs are the easiest to flash that's for sure.

Mike. I have a spare TJ ECU here that you can borrow if you want to try one :)

Added some extra spark for premium, bit of extra fuel under load as they normally lean out like hell, and also moved the rev limiter. However, that is only going to run so well until you ditch those crappy 4 cams and get some 380 ones, then the above combo will fly! :)

I want that haha

TJ onward ECUs are the easiest to flash that's for sure.

Mike. I have a spare TJ ECU here that you can borrow if you want to try one :)

Added some extra spark for premium, bit of extra fuel under load as they normally lean out like hell, and also moved the rev limiter. However, that is only going to run so well until you ditch those crappy 4 cams and get some 380 ones, then the above combo will fly! :)

must stay in touch! ive got a KJ GTV ecu laying around :)

Mike if you want, you can try my old TH manual ecu (plastic cased model) which has been flashed with the "GTP2140" tune.
Its the same tune i ran in my car back in 2001 with the number 4 cams and then later on with the number 7 cams.

Or if ya want to supply me a tj ecu i could flash that tune or a modded ralliart in to it for you when i get some time

Cant do that as Mike has the auto harness

Cant do that as Mike has the auto harness

lol yeah i just remebered that his car was originally a auto.

What difference do the looms make and why are they different
Oh and sure Jason, I actually do now have a spare tj ecu that I can get to you when we can arrange to meet up

I'm not sure if i have been following correctly, say I have a TH Sports, can i get a TJ ecu flashed to a ralliart tune and swap it over or is that horribly wrong?

I'm not sure if i have been following correctly, say I have a TH Sports, can i get a TJ ecu flashed to a ralliart tune and swap it over or is that horribly wrong?

My magna is a 1999 manual TH sports and im running a manual TJ Ecu in it. That should answer your question :-)

What difference do the looms make and why are they different
Oh and sure Jason, I actually do now have a spare tj ecu that I can get to you when we can arrange to meet up

Aside from you TCL, the manual loom is completely different and the ECU can not be swapped between the 2 without changing the looms, to go to a Manual loom you can get one and plug and play however your TB will also need to be changed and may as well get rid of the TCL hoses off the motor a well while you are at it.

My magna is a 1999 manual TH sports and im running a manual TJ Ecu in it. That should answer your question :-)

Awesome, did you notice much of a difference? What other mods are you running?

Awesome, did you notice much of a difference? What other mods are you running?

No difference, As my TH ecu was already running a different tune.
I mainly changed to the TJ ecu for ease of reflashing over the TH ecu.
I guess you could say my car has a few engine mods

TJ onward ECUs are the easiest to flash that's for sure.


I mainly changed to the TJ ecu for ease of reflashing over the TH ecu.

Whats wrong with pre TJ ECUs? i think there's a big misconception here... Reflashing is the same!

the code on the SuperH and H8 based ECUS is compiled from the same C source code. They are both have exactly the same tables in them, tables are laid out the same and values. Only difference is rom size and instruction set of the processor. SuperH has more rom memory, but doesnt even utilise it. H8 is also the same, half the rom is empty space.

In fact the defs for a H8 ecu are better than a SuperH :nuts:

PS you dont need to swap ECUs between TCL/non-TCL models... just turn the bit off for it.

Whats wrong with pre TJ ECUs? i think there's a big misconception here... Reflashing is the same!

the code on the SuperH and H8 based ECUS is compiled from the same C source code. They are both have exactly the same tables in them, tables are laid out the same and values. Only difference is rom size and instruction set of the processor. SuperH has more rom memory, but doesnt even utilise it. H8 is also the same, half the rom is empty space.

In fact the defs for a H8 ecu are better than a SuperH :nuts:

PS you dont need to swap ECUs between TCL/non-TCL models... just turn the bit off for it.

I believe the problem mate is the availability of compatible hardware for flashing. Certain openport cables dont work with pre-tj ecus

I believe the problem mate is the availability of compatible hardware for flashing. Certain openport cables dont work with pre-tj ecus

I've only got a openport 2.0, and i'm yet to find an ECU that is H8 or SuperH based that i cant reflash.

Openport 2 follows SAE J2534 standard, and can communicate using various protocols including what mitsu use (iso9141 without l-line)

Only problem you'll come across is the program needed to reflash - Ecuflash unfortuntely doesnt reflash as many ECUs as what MMCFlash does... but regardless the hardware in both the car and the openport both follow SAE standards.

Guess you know heaps more than mr knight even though he worked on them thru out the magna development.

I guess steve, myself and wytwun on here know nothing then, even though all of us have reflashed plenty of magna (and evo ecu's) Hell steve even uses some of the magna and evo x def files that ive done

Hmmm so say i sent my 3l manual TH ECU to you, would you be able to flash that to a ralliart tune for my 3.5l TH Sports manual...? or will it be cooooompletely different and i'm a bit special?

Guess you know heaps more than mr knight even though he worked on them thru out the magna development.

I guess steve, myself and wytwun on here know nothing then, even though all of us have reflashed plenty of magna (and evo ecu's) Hell steve even uses some of the magna and evo x def files that ive done

No need for sarcasm. I have been in contact Wytwun in the past about various things, and about to drop a bunch of stuff for him to play with. My work is mainly H8 based stuff, but it applys to superH as its the same source code.

Although, it's attitudes like yours that make people not share what they've discovered and created - given that everyone that contributes also has a life to lead rather than staring at assembly/hex all day.

Thankfully, the VR4 community is a lot more appreciative of people sharing what they've achieved, some even donate $$ to people that contribute. I've managed to publish the most comprehensive VR4 defs by disassembly (rather than by simply looking for tables in hex editor), and have applied my work to magnas for some mates (my dev ecu is a TF ecu running the vr4 code). Hell, i've even managed to do some cool things (or in process of) like increase Baud rate, hijack MUT, outputs based on conditions, wideband input (internally simulated narrowband), conditional fuel pump speeds, working with Kenneth to implement Speed Density to eliminate the MAF.

I've also heard through 2-3 people that Steve Knight would like to have a chat with me re: defs, patching, etc - just never have got around to it.

I'm just sharing my experience with others and am keen to hear others experiences too. if you dont like it, you can go to russia.

Hmmm so say i sent my 3l manual TH ECU to you, would you be able to flash that to a ralliart tune for my 3.5l TH Sports manual...? or will it be cooooompletely different and i'm a bit special?

basically the way i would approach this grab the fuel & ign maps from the ralliart tune (this rom wont be compatible with your ECU as it's superH based), and put them into your rom. If you send me the ROMs, i can do this for you.

No need for sarcasm. I have been in contact Wytwun in the past about various things, and about to drop a bunch of stuff for him to play with. My work is mainly H8 based stuff, but it applys to superH as its the same source code.

Although, it's attitudes like yours that make people not share what they've discovered and created - given that everyone that contributes also has a life to lead rather than staring at assembly/hex all day.

Thankfully, the VR4 community is a lot more appreciative of people sharing what they've achieved, some even donate $$ to people that contribute. I've managed to publish the most comprehensive VR4 defs by disassembly (rather than by simply looking for tables in hex editor), and have applied my work to magnas for some mates (my dev ecu is a TF ecu running the vr4 code). Hell, i've even managed to do some cool things (or in process of) like increase Baud rate, hijack MUT, outputs based on conditions, wideband input (internally simulated narrowband), conditional fuel pump speeds, working with Kenneth to implement Speed Density to eliminate the MAF.

I've also heard through 2-3 people that Steve Knight would like to have a chat with me re: defs, patching, etc - just never have got around to it.

I'm just sharing my experience with others and am keen to hear others experiences too. if you dont like it, you can go to russia.

I like the idea of this!

No need for sarcasm.
Although, it's attitudes like yours that make people not share what they've discovered and created - given that everyone that contributes also has a life to lead rather than staring at assembly/hex all day.

I'm just sharing my experience with others and am keen to hear others experiences too. if you dont like it, you can go to russia.

I wasnt being sarcastic....

Gees i was just simply implying that there is alot of background work that has been done by some of us and to 98% of people on here it would be way over there heads to take all the info in in its full detail.
The best and easiest way is to keep the info simple and in everyday laymans terms that people can understand, hence why i dont go into huge detail about things.

IF people want more detail they usually ask me 1 on 1 in person at a club meet etc where im happy enough to pass on advice/info.

The other thing is work permanent nightshift so I dont spend all day looking at hex shite (to be honest i F ing hate ecu ROM disassembly/def file writing). I have pretty well moved on from the magna/evo stuff as i no longer own a evo and im happy enough with the detail in the def file for my magna that i no longer need to get into that side of things anymore.

Hey Bill!

I've only ever bothered with the TJ onwards ECU's because when I first started getting in to it Steve had and showed me the trouble of working on the old hex ones, wasting your time with converting the values back and forth etc wasn't worth it to him in the long run if you're going to be tuning your car a lot. He's used to working on the newer ones in the later EVO's and such it was never a priority for him to waste his time on the older ones.

However, it looks like you may be finding it a lot easier than how we've been trying to convert the language barrier.

Also Bill, does this mean that you know moe now?? lol :ninja:

BCX7, you reckon you can implement dual mapping as well? I wouldn't mind showing my tuner these modifications you're working on and I'd be happy to contribute to your development...

How about knock sense ability? That would be awesome!

BCX7, you reckon you can implement dual mapping as well? I wouldn't mind showing my tuner these modifications you're working on and I'd be happy to contribute to your development...

How about knock sense ability? That would be awesome!

Yes i would like a knock sensor and 13:1 comp on the ralliart XD

Yes i would like a knock sensor and 13:1 comp on the ralliart XD

Pop!!

Yes i would like a knock sensor and 13:1 comp on the ralliart XD

No point running 13:1 compression unless you're running straight methanol :P

Hey Bill!

I've only ever bothered with the TJ onwards ECU's because when I first started getting in to it Steve had and showed me the trouble of working on the old hex ones, wasting your time with converting the values back and forth etc wasn't worth it to him in the long run if you're going to be tuning your car a lot. He's used to working on the newer ones in the later EVO's and such it was never a priority for him to waste his time on the older ones.

However, it looks like you may be finding it a lot easier than how we've been trying to convert the language barrier.

Also Bill, does this mean that you know moe now?? lol :ninja:

ok, fair enough - i though the scaling applied to the values in the tables are the same between a h8 and superH. the only real difference is the layout of the rom. SuperH is a 32-bit processor, so it works in dwords - H8 only works in words (16-bit)

tbh, i havent done too much with the superh code as my motivation is development for the VR4 naturally. it just so happens that the early magnas have a H8 (tf onwards).

Either way, if you have a H8 ECU, i just dont see the point in 'upgrading' to a TJ ecu, when the fundamental code and values in the tables are the same. ECUFlash will flash a MH7202F or MH7203FA without any problems, and functionality is the same. Might save someone a bit of $$ trying to get a hold of a TJ onwards ecu.


BCX7, you reckon you can implement dual mapping as well? I wouldn't mind showing my tuner these modifications you're working on and I'd be happy to contribute to your development...

How about knock sense ability? That would be awesome!

Switchable maps is piss easy. if you only want two maps - i can give wytwun an example of how it's done on a h8, if he (or anyone else for that matter) wants to port it to a superh too.

On the other hand, Kenneth (clubvr4) has developed 8 switchable maps for VR4 rom that i could port to magna with his permission.

Knock input is a bit of a pain, its easier to find a donor rom for it that has all the knock stuff in it. Wytwun gave me a h8 rom once that could probably be used, i just put it on my to-do list to disassemble, define and release for someone to try.

Modern cars are running it?

I like the idea of this!

From indications I've read amongst the knowledgable in the Evo community, in our engines (even moderately forced) the Karmann Vortex MAF doesn't affect the intake the way a lot of hot wire MAF users (who have no choice but to use the speed density approach) believe it does.

From indications I've read amongst the knowledgable in the Evo community, in our engines (even moderately forced) the Karmann Vortex MAF doesn't affect the intake the way a lot of hot wire MAF users (who have no choice but to use the speed density approach) believe it does.

indeed, the MAF add little to no restriction... yet people seem to want to eliminate it though... perhaps to make the piping simpler, ability to use other air filters (like pods?)

Modern cars are running it?

But not on these ECUs. 380's Bosch unit will be completely different

The cruise control on/off button held for 5seconds is used to "enter" map switching mode and then the up/down is used to "select" maps, that is what i use to switch maps on my magna.

Only reason ive trialed it on my magna is incase i want to run a E85 map with the built 3.8l engine, at the moment its just used as a low rev/speedlimit map.

My evo x had similar setup but had up to 7 different maps available, although i only ever used 2.

That would be just awesome! Keep us updated! I'll be happy to pay somebody to implement the dual or more maps mapping and knock sensing to my rom/definition files!

Hopefully this can all be sorted before I finish off my build...

tbh, i havent done too much with the superh code as my motivation is development for the VR4 naturally. it just so happens that the early magnas have a H8 (tf onwards).
For onlookers, I'm the reverse - I've done most of my work with the SuperH (aka SH2 or SH7052/SH7055) ECUs, and haven't done much more with the H8 ECUs than look at a couple of ROMs with a hex editor (I don't have an H8 disassembler).


Either way, if you have a H8 ECU, i just dont see the point in 'upgrading' to a TJ ecu, when the fundamental code and values in the tables are the same. ECUFlash will flash a MH7202F or MH7203FA without any problems, and functionality is the same. Might save someone a bit of $$ trying to get a hold of a TJ onwards ecu.

Capability wise, some pretty serious beasts have been built with the H8 ECUs so its not a lack of capability with the ECU. Reflashing reliability with older cables was a big impediment to wider accessibility, but the Openport 2 resolved that.


Switchable maps is piss easy. if you only want two maps - i can give wytwun an example of how it's done on a h8, if he (or anyone else for that matter) wants to port it to a superh too.

I'm definitely interested! Even more so about how you were able to identify usable pins. There is an Evo 8 (SuperH) two map mod that I know of too, not to mention a lot of the Tephra mods. But trying to map pins/ports from the manual ECU pinout to the auto ECU pinout (which is my main interest) is what's slowed me down.


On the other hand, Kenneth (clubvr4) has developed 8 switchable maps for VR4 rom that i could port to magna with his permission.

For us auto folks, I've also thought about the gear dependant map setup used in the Evo 7 GT-A.


Knock input is a bit of a pain, its easier to find a donor rom for it that has all the knock stuff in it. Wytwun gave me a h8 rom once that could probably be used, i just put it on my to-do list to disassemble, define and release for someone to try.

I do have SuperH USDM Diamante ROMs with that capability which I want to look at. From what I've gathered knock sensor support, while useful for a daily drive that might have to cope with variable fuel quality, is over-rated for use with more performance oriented setups with good quality fuel.

Incidentally that Diamante H8 ROM probably also has the ODBC2 emulation implemented too (something else I want to investigate in the SuperH).

Sigh... so much to play with, so little time...

I really don't understand Dave.

From indications I've read amongst the knowledgable in the Evo community, in our engines (even moderately forced) the Karmann Vortex MAF doesn't affect the intake the way a lot of hot wire MAF users (who have no choice but to use the speed density approach) believe it does.


indeed, the MAF add little to no restriction... yet people seem to want to eliminate it though... perhaps to make the piping simpler, ability to use other air filters (like pods?)

Ok, thanks for that fella's. Looks restrictive though!......guess i'll cross that one off the list!

I really don't understand Dave.

Other ECU's will have a different code base, for example the 380's bosch unit (which has the ability to control knock) wont be compatible with a Magna ECU

Other ECU's will have a different code base, for example the 380's bosch unit (which has the ability to control knock) wont be compatible with a Magna ECU

So adition of a knock sensor is impossible? Can'y you run an aftermarket ecu and have it?

So adition of a knock sensor is impossible? Can'y you run an aftermarket ecu and have it?

Yes, of course its possible but a very specific application needs to be used that uses the same ECU variant. Wytwun said that a Diamante might be possible

Any updates boys and girls??