Hello, this is my first post and I'm glad I found this community because it looks like its going to be very helpful.
I've picked up a 2004 KW Verada AWD which I'm getting to know. I'm only a driver with no mechanical training, but I know my old car very well and like to maintain my cars well. Previously I had a FWD Verada from new (now with 200,000 Km's on it) and the two cars are similiar to drive in some ways but very different in others. I'm really enjoying the AWD and I'm looking forward to some advice from the members here.

I've noticed that this AWD is noisier and has a harsher shift than my other car.
Basically there is a feeling of torque twist when it changes gear at any speed with a minor thumping feeling. Mostly noticeable at lower speeds, i.e. city traffic.
There is also a vibration sound at idle RPM which I describe as sounding like a lawn mower and coming from somewhere low towards the front, although not very loud! Hard to hear once driving. The sound may be normal, but my previous car is extremely quiet (except for some tappet noise) with smooth gear changes, even after all these years.

The AWD has very low KM's and has probably spent much of its life just garaged. The dealer has explained the issue of dry seals in the transmission as a possible reason for harsh shift. There is also a harsh thump when engaging reverse. The thump is harsh when first engaging reverse but then moving to neutral and then back to reverse and its not so bad. Its a thump with a metallic click noise of some sort coming from the rear. Dealer agrees its harsh but says its torque and nothing to worry over. Some mornings its pretty bad though with a very harsh thump and I'm worried about it. I really want to look after the car and ensure prolonged life by proper servicing and use of the correct oils.
The only other thing is that there is another vibration sound when its first started in the mornings from cold. This comes from the front while reversing out of the driveway and then goes away. Sounds like a bearing noise, but not too loud. I've had them check everything including CV joints and nothing seems to be wrong.

I've had the ATF and oils flushed a couple of times; when I first bought it and a few 000k's later.
There may have been an improvement in the shift quality but harshness is still there.

Initially the dealer flushed the ATF with "Dexron Ti" (according to the invoice) and later (about 3K) I had it flushed again and the invoice states "SP-Tii". I assume thats the same oil, Dexron?
I had the TC oil replaced and the invoice shows "Transfer Case Oil GL5"
(I understand that the TC and front diff are integrated and share the same oil.)
Later I had them replace the TC oil again and they used "DiaQueen Synthetic".
The rear diff oil was replaced only once and the invoice doesnt describe what it was.

At that point I wanted to understand what the best/correct oils are that I should be putting into this car.
So... i did some research and I learned about the GL ratings and Viscosity ratings for multigrade oils.
Can anyone tell me what the best recommended oil products are for the transmission, TC and rear diff in this car and what GL codes and Viscosity ratings apply?
What are you guys using?

Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

dextron kills mitsubishi transmissions
the mitsubishi sp3 fluid is what to use...
people have had invoices before that say dextron by default though even though the workshop used a compatible fluid.

Re the transmission and other noises. I'd contact MadMagna at MitsFix and go visit him. He knows these cars inside out and you will save time and money by going there first. He also has his preferences for oils.

FWIW, I use Mobil 1 5/50 in the engine, Mits SPIII in the gearbox and Mobil 1 SHC 75/90 in the transfer case and rear diff. No lube issues as yet and coming up 195,000 kms in my TWII VRX AWD. These fluids have been used since break in and changed at book intervals. Bear in mind that this is a country car that does 25-30,000 kms a year and is therefore easy on oils. I change the kids TJs at 10,000 engine and was 40,000 for the gearbox but am now reducing that to 30,000 kms. I noticed an improvement in box operation after the last changes, and that means to me I left it a bit long. They do more urban work now.

Steve

Mitsubishi SP iii? Maybe that's what they meant to say when they wrote SP Tii on the invoice?
I'll have to ask them for the exact details.
I didnt know about MitsFix, I'll check them as well.

[edit]
Ok, the dealer confirms the following:
Mitsubishi SP-3 ATF for the transmission on both occasions. (The "dexron" reference on the invoice was incorrect.)
Castrol VMX GL5 75W85 for the Transfer case first time, then Mitsubishi DiaQueen second time.
Rear diff has Castrol LSX 90.
This appears to be the standard recommended oils that the dealers use.
Reading Castrols info on their website and it all sounds pretty good.
The DiaQueen is used in the EVO so should be fine for the Verada as well.

Hmm. I will see if MitsFix can help regarding the vibration noises.

Hey mate.

Always try and use Mitsubishi oils in the tranny, tc and rear diff. There is a additive you can put in the rear diff for the LSD. It is a Mitsubishi product and fairly dear. For memory it's called something like a friction modifier for Mitsubishi LSD's. Madmagna will know it.

As for shift quality, try reprogramming the transmission shift sequence. There is a document on here that tells you how to do it. And it works, I had similar issues and fixed them all.
As for that groan bearing noise under light acceleration when cold, that is your belt that does your a/c and alternator etc. needs a tighten. They like to he fairly tight to stop that bearing like noise. Common problem but very easily fixed.

The AWD is a louder and not as refined car as the fwd. is a much better car but they are / have never been as quiet or smooth as their fwd brothers.

Enjoy the great motoring mate.

Welcome to the club.

I use Mitsubishi ATF for the transmission and Diaqueen for the transfer case and rear diff. The product FamilyWagon is referring to is called "Friction Modifier for LSD oil" and the part number is MB664682. Costs about $32 for a 100ml bottle. He put me onto it. You add 50ml to the rear diff only; don't put it in the transfer case.

Are the diffs in the AWD clutch type ones?

I believe the rear LSD is clutch-type but the centre LSD is like a torque converter, just fans in oil. I think I'm right?

Both centre and rear diffs are sealed viscous coupling units, or VCUs. As I interpret the manual, the VCUs are not servicable, and are completely sealed within the outer housing where the oil is added. They are not traditional LSDs and they are both specified to use the same oil. LSD oil is of no value, and arguably a negative. LSD oil is designed to be less slippery so that the clutch packs grip and therfore work, which is not an issue here.

Of course, I reserve the right to be wrong.

Steve

Awesome advice, thanks guys. Is there consensus on the oils to use?
So DiaQueen in the TC and rear diff? Regular Mits SP 3 in the transmission?
And that friction modifier in the rear diff?

@familyWagon, I had the ECU reset and error codes checked, but no difference.
Good to know that the AWD's are generally less refined. Maybe this is all pretty normal.

Really appreciate all ur help here!

My use of Mitsubishi DiaQueen is based on Madmagna's recommendation. I use the Mitsubishi ATF because I get it for trade price at the local dealer and this makes it cheaper than other brands of SPIII ATF at places like Supercheap Auto, Autobarn and the like.

If you want to go all out try Redline, I put it in all diff, TC and trans and it made a big difference, much much smoother. Expensive though ;) their website has the oil types if you search magna and evo specs.

If you want to go all out try Redline, I put it in all diff, TC and trans and it made a big difference, much much smoother. Expensive though ;) their website has the oil types if you search magna and evo specs.

I'm willing to look at all the options, but you've got to be explicit with me, remember I'm not a mechanic! I had a look at their site, couldn't find anything about magna and they talk about all sorts of techy stuff.
Can u provide links to the specific products you're recommending or state the exact product names for me?
Thank you!

from this page ;)
http://www.redlineoil.com.au/oil-finder.asp

Auto Transmission - Red Line HiTempATF
Transfer Case - Red Line 'Lightweight Shockproof' Gear Oil
Rear Diff - Red Line 'Lightweight Shockproof' Gear Oil

The evo 7-8 says 'heavy shockproof' for the t/c, not sure which generation our t/c came from, I used the lightweight shockproof and it worked fine

Hey mate. Even though you have had your transmission checked and reset, still do the transmission learning sequence as explained in that attachment in the next thread. That's what works to help shift quality.

Hey mate. Even though you have had your transmission checked and reset, still do the transmission learning sequence as explained in that attachment in the next thread. That's what works to help shift quality.

Really? Ok, I will try that somehow. I don't understand that whole thing tho, the "adaptive" logic should adjust automatically?

I'm going to have the guys at MitsFix check the car too, see what their opinion of the "lawn mower" vibration noises is.
As far as that goes, I've been wondering in my little head if the TC is starving for oil, I.e. insufficient quantity - something about the noise sounding like gear noise leading me to wonder about that in a laymans way of thinking. I can't check it like I can the ATF...

That sound seems to be coming from slightly to my left and slightly forward from me and varies with RPM. Sounds like a low growl like a gear turning on a gear noise, or a bearing noise.
I've noticed that after the car has driven for more than 1o minutes or so it's not as loud and seems to quieten down, but always there if I listen for it. It's the main sound giving the car a noisy environment in the cabin, I'm sure if that coud be rectified the cabin noise level would be satisfactory.

But I understand noises can be transmitted throughout the chassis for any number of reasons, so I'm not too alarmed.

Fairly sure that groan noise is your belts. Sounds strange but trust me, tighten them up tight and it will be gone.

Fairly sure that groan noise is your belts. Sounds strange but trust me, tighten them up tight and it will be gone.

MadMagna agrees with u, I met with him today. He pointed out to me that the belts look original and i'm sure they are, so thats 8 years old. Alt belt looks shiny. I'll get them replaced ASAP and will see what difference that makes. It feels counter-intuitive just based on the sound, but who am i to resist good advice! Actually I was surprised that I hadn't already replaced those belts when I had the timing belt done, that was an oversight on my part.

I will also follow the Learning procedure as above later this afternoon and see how that goes. MadMagna has reassured me that the idle will not be an issue.

You still may be able to tighten the belts you have on there. They do stretch and eventually the tensioner will be at its max position and then it's time for a new belt. I always had that noise in mine and I had whole exhaust systems changed under warranty and countless other things done to fix to no avail. Turns out that it was just belts that needed a tension. Mitsubishi didn't even know about it at the time.

You still may be able to tighten the belts you have on there. They do stretch and eventually the tensioner will be at its max position and then it's time for a new belt. I always had that noise in mine and I had whole exhaust systems changed under warranty and countless other things done to fix to no avail. Turns out that it was just belts that needed a tension. Mitsubishi didn't even know about it at the time.
No worries, crossing fingers its the root cause of the noise. As for tightening them; not going to risk an old belt snapping and possibly doing damage to something else for the sake of a few bucks, they're coming off!
Have to do the learning procedure tomorrow now, other stuff in the way this afternoon.

Ok, belts replaced. This has made a big difference but has not removed the "lawn mower" noise.
What a difference tighter belts make! The general noise level has dropped significantly in the cabin. If I could eliminate the lawn mower noise it woukd be near silent.

I've had the oil quantities checked again in the TC and diff. I have Dia Queen in both and i trust that they're at the correct qty after I had the dealer carefully check. I didn't put the friction modifier in the diff as the dealer raised serious doubts and said that had been necessary a while ago in some Pajeros but is not necessary now in the Verada AWD and could even be detrimental. (I'm willing to take the risk of losing any benefits it may provide and not use it given this advice, rather than take the risk of it being detrimental, if you see what I mean.)

For anyone who's interested and still following this thread, I had some annoying noises and shift quality issues and started off to address this firstly by asking and learning all about the oils. Currently I've learned a lot and i'm happy the correct oils are in the car at the correct quantities.
Doing the ECU learning procedure ha improved the shift quality quite a lot.
Replacing the belts has removed a lot of noise, except for one annoying one. I call this "lawn mower" noise cos it sounds like a lawn mower sound. It's low volume, varies with RPM and most easily heard between 600 -1500 RPM at idle and when driving at low speed. At higher speed it becomes harder to hear it. It's not evident in neutral and it doesn't seem to be there if coasting (I.e no acceleration). I guess it sounds like gear noise. It seems to be coming from near the driver position, under me and slightly to my left.
Can't hear it standing outside the car, too much engine noise from outside. When the car has had a good run it seems slightly less loud, but that may simply be a function of the reduced RPM when its warmed up.

I wonder if it's timing belt noise? Might need more tension? Anyhow, I will arrange to have experts listen to it to identify what it is.

Where are you mate? I could tell you in a second if it's still the belts. My bet is they need more tension. They love to be tight. They may feel tight but might not be tight enough.

Where are you mate? I could tell you in a second if it's still the belts. My bet is they need more tension. They love to be tight. They may feel tight but might not be tight enough.

Hi FamilyWagon, I'm going to have the tension on the timing belt reset by the dealership who installed it, but as I said above the other belts have now been replaced and except for this last noise the car is now very very quiet, especially when warmed up at idle, (i.e. Sitting at red light) can't hear anything except for some quiet running noise.

I think resetting the timing belt tension is worth a shot, but I strongly suspect this is probably normal operating noise from the TC. I hope I don't give the wrong impression about it, it's very quiet not loud at all. Just an annoying frequency.

Btw, I've been describing this noise as a "lawn mower" sound, but i was thinking it may be more accurate to say it sounds like a tractor noise, heh, if that helps. Pretty subjective I guess.

Ahh, ok. Yeah could be the tension of the timing belt or the tensioner may be gone itself. I had to change one in mine too. It sounded like an old astron 4cyl magna motor when it started up like a loose rattle. The loose ac belts give off a slight groan noise when under very light acceleration from a stand still. Sounds more like a bearing noise than a tractor noise.

Timing belt even if a little loose won't groan due to the pre tensioner. If too tight it would scream all the time

Hey Mal. Was just explaining that groan bearing noise we know of when your ac belt is not tight enough. Sounds like the noise he has is a pre tensioner that either needs to be reset or replaced like you did on mine.

Hi guys, I'm going to bring the car to Mal to see what he thinks if the noise. As I said it may turn out to be kinda typical, although seems a little too annoying for that. I was guessing about the timing belt being the cause, so thanks for setting me straight on that Mal.

Btw, I'm happy with the oils in TC and rear diff now, being the right products and the right qty, but I've "only" flushed the ATF twice and I'm wondering about that. The work invoice says first time they used 6L but second time only 4. Then again first inv stated "Dexron" which they later said was just a typo with the correct Mitsubishi sp 3 being used in each case. But 2 flushes should be enough to flush out whatever was there before right? (the prior history is not known - the selling dealer who was not a Mits dealer said they'd flushed it in preperation for sale, but I dk what with).

Actually, same question for the rear diff, originally they used Castrol lsx90, and now DiaQueen. Is that good enough, or should I replace it one more time to make sure all the Castrol lsx90 is gone?

Both centre and rear diffs are sealed viscous coupling units, or VCUs. As I interpret the manual, the VCUs are not servicable, and are completely sealed within the outer housing where the oil is added. They are not traditional LSDs and they are both specified to use the same oil. LSD oil is of no value, and arguably a negative. LSD oil is designed to be less slippery so that the clutch packs grip and therfore work, which is not an issue here.

Of course, I reserve the right to be wrong.

Steve
What's the situation with the oils in the viscous coupling units? And what about the oil in the torque converter? (I assume there is a torque converter). Do they last for practically ever, or do we eventually have to replace them? Do they degrade slowly, or suddenly? I guess replacing them would mean replacing the TC and rear diff?

I'm only asking out of curiosity, as such replacement would defeat one of the purposes I had in buying the car, and I wouldn't do it unless they were broken.

Are these parts readily available for the AWD Veradas, new? I think the 5 speed auto is only available refurbished now, right? I assume if they are a standard design they might be available...

There is no way tou can flush a trans with only 6l of fluid. Drain and refill takes 5.5 and that is not including flush. Torque converter shares the fluid with the trans and there is approx another 2l of fluid

There is no way tou can flush a trans with only 6l of fluid. Drain and refill takes 5.5 and that is not including flush. Torque converter shares the fluid with the trans and there is approx another 2l of fluid
That's not good news Mal :( Are you saying approx 7.5L of ATF in total in both the tranny and Torque converter combined?
I didn't know the Torque converter is integrated to the auto! I assumed the oil in the converter would be a different type. I'm learning a lot here!

The 2 invoices, one for each occassion, state:
1st time: "automatic transmission fluid flush". In the sundrys section it states: "auto trans fluid Dexron TI" and under qty it shows "6.00" against code "AF1". (They later told me the "Dexron" was a typo and it should have read SP3).

2nd time (3000 Kms later) "carried out full automatic transmission flush". In the sundrys section it states: "auto trans fluid ATF sp-Tii" and under qty it shows "4.00" and code is "AF11"

They also list a gasket on the first job only.

Now the curious thing is that I remember someone there telling me that they don't have a "power flush machine". I assume that would be some kind of high pressure thing to force out all the fluid under high pressure, but I dk if that would be a good idea. Possibly stir up all the junk in the filter.

I assumed that the old fluid is pumped out and new pumped in via the transmission lines and the cars own pump, but actually I dk how they do it. I guess it could be drained from a plug and then filled via the dip stick tube? What do the dealers usually do? I'll ask them tomorrow exactly what was done. Actually, I probably prefer if it's just drain and fill, but I need to understand that all the old stuff is out and the fluid is completely replaced. Drain and fill wouldn't achieve that would it?

If they replaced 6L the first time then that's 6 new and 1.5 old, or about 20% old fluid, right?
If they replaced 4L or approx 50% of that the next time then it's still got old ATF in it, maybe 10%, basically watering down the new stuff :(
That's a big problem cos I dk what the selling dealer, who wasn't a Mits dealer, put in it. Could have been anything.
I dk wat the original owner did either, although I assume it was original ATF up until it was traded in.

Btw, the invoices for the rear diff and TC state .55L and .62L, respectively.

Leave it to Mal mate. He knows how to do everything the correct way. As for replacement parts, you will never need them buddy. These things are fairly bullet proof unless you drive it like you stole it. Even then, they are more reliable than most cars on the road.

Ok, the dealer states that the quantities on the invoices (6 and then 4L) are probably understated. The service manager there will try to confirm exactly what the quantities actually were likely to have been and let me know today or tomorrow.
The method used to flush was drain, then manually flush. I've explained its not about blaming anyone, it's about understanding how much of the original ATF has actually been replaced.

[edit update] this car is awesome to drive and I am waaay too overconfident in it.
Was pi$$ing down rain on the fwy the other night and from the handling of the car I would never know it! Really going to have to watch that cos I bet it would aquaplane just as badly as any other car, push comes to shove.

Another example; I'm approaching a tight multi-lane curve which I know from experience most 2WD cars will need to slow down to navigate, but the AWD easily laps up. It's on the approach to the east link. I'm on the inside lane.
Some kid in a nice shiny red commodore pulls up and matches my speed at 80 clicks, which is the limit, but then proceeds to nearly lose it fish tailing everywhere and looking very clumsy, meanwhile I sail on very elegantly spot on 80, one hand on the wheel. Should have seen the look he gave me! lol

As for the oil qtys they don't know exactly, except to say it would definetly be more than those figures.
It's not very good that the paperwork was not done correctly, especially when u realise they charge on those figures! I would hope even if it was only 10 litres that it should be sufficient to replace nearly all of the original ATF.

When I look at the ATF on the dipstick it looks perfectly clear, but colors a cloth a nice pinky/red. There is also some grey that comes off onto the cloth as well, seems to be off the stick itself. I've noticed that on the the other car.

As for that annoying vibration noise, over the past week or so it's softened quite a bit. Very hard to hear at idle now and gets drowned out by road noise above about 20KMS/hour. I can still hear it of course, easily since I know what I'm listening for, especially at low speed. Very much sounds like gears ticking over, or a belt.

I just had the drive drive belts replaced, so maybe it's the timing belt, maybe its too tight. Would that sound vary with RPM?

Update; I had it power flushed, used 11 litres. After these 3 procedures (drain/refill, manual flush and now power flush) its gotta be clean now.
Surprisingly enough they said they noticed some minor discoloration during the procedure, although not too bad. I wanted them to use more than 11, more like 15L from what I've read about the process, but I guess they must have seen it was looking pretty clean and decided to stop. I should have more clearly instructed them on that.

My learnings and recommendations out of this whole experience in relation to Mits dealership services are
1 Educate yourself about the oils that go into your car and understand the pros and cons of the different types and products so that you are in a position to understand the technical jargon the service guys use
2 find out which oil products they want to use and decide if you're happy with those
3 understand the procedure they will apply before you go in and decide if it's sufficient to meet your objective.
4 clearly communicate your expectations about everything about the job. Make certain they heard what u actually want, rather than what they think u need. Be aware that the guy you speak to probably won't be the guy doing the actual job, so double check any paper work before and after.

This wouldn't apply to the usual lifecycle maintenance where that should be sufficient based on Mitsubishi service schedules, especially for more recent vehicles, but I recommend this approach for older cars or for special jobs.

As for Mits dealerships; they are geared up for the usual maintenance lifecycle and are slow to understand special needs outside of that schedule, IMHO. For example, a request to "replace the ATF" may be translated to "the customer needs a drain and fill". Also, don't use technical terms like "flush" unless you know exactly what that means to them. Flushes aint flushes! This can be a trap because these words all have their usual English meaning which may not be how they're being used in the technical context, so do research and learn about the terms that are in use.

No change to that noise, I'll follow up with MadMagna on that, but I'm sure its nothing to be concerned about, either a belt noise or some minor drivetrain vibration

Just re-reading this thread, and i think it would be confusing in some parts for the novice reader.
To clarify some of the terms, these are the components that need oils under discussion in the thread as I understand it, (anyone please correct me if I'm wrong):
1. Rear diff,
2. Transfer case (TC), which is combined with the front diff do that they share oil,
3. Automatic Transmission - which is combined with the torque converter, so that the share oil.

Corrected as per Grelise, and munkeymanz below!

Front diff and Transmission are one unit, share the same oil,
Transfer case is seperate, uses the same oil as the rear diff.

Front diff and Transmission are one unit, share the same oil,
Transfer case is seperate, uses the same oil as the rear diff.

Centre diff and Transmission are one unit. The front diff is inside the transfer case. Centre diff is in the transmission where the Front diff would be on a 2WD.

Centre diff and Transmission are one unit. The front diff is inside the transfer case. Centre diff is in the transmission where the Front diff would be on a 2WD.

No, I believe that front diff and transmission/gearbox and the rear drive takeoff use a common sump with ATF. Then there is a separate centre diff bolted to the transmission housing, but separate and then the rear diff. Centre and rear diff use the same gear oil and contain sealed VCU LSDs.

Next correction? :ninja:

Centre diff and Transmission are one unit. The front diff is inside the transfer case. Centre diff is in the transmission where the Front diff would be on a 2WD.


No, I believe that front diff and transmission/gearbox and the rear drive takeoff use a common sump with ATF. Then there is a separate centre diff bolted to the transmission housing, but separate and then the rear diff. Centre and rear diff use the same gear oil and contain sealed VCU LSDs.

Next correction? :ninja:


I think you'll find that Munkeymanz is correct actually.

The front diff is in the transfer case & the rear diff is well......at the rear. lol Centre diff is in the trans as he stated.

:ninja:

Man, just an update on this, discovered yesterday that the front lower right side control arm rear knuckle was not tight. Approx half a turn loose. This was tightened up and the N&V has been significantly reduced. The shudder I was getting through the floor pan on takeoff has improved to being almost undetectable.
Other bushes and knuckles were checked and found ok. I'm assuming the N&V was from the arm.

God I'm glad I read this thread. I have suspected the belts all along for that 1200 rpm 'groan' noise. Iv'e had it for almost 2 years, and noticed it went when I had the belts replaced just 12 months ago, but returned about a month later. They have obviously slackened a little. Actually it's just one belt with a tensioner pulley isn't it? Anyway, as soon as this damn rain stops, I will be under the hood with the tool kit. Haven't done it before, but after reading another thread on how to do it I think I should be right. Will let you know how I go

You little RIPPER!!!! Took a couple of goes, but the dreaded "groan" now gone. Tis a glorious day!!! :-)

Thinking of swapping the Mits Diaqueen for the Redline lightweight shockproof in the rear diff and TC. Read lots of good feedback about it improving smoothness. Anyone know of any problems using it in the AWD? I think its also recommended for the Evo 6, so should be ok as the TC is the same one used on the Evo 6?

I've been running redline lightweight shockproof in the rear diff and TC (+ gearbox) for a few years without issue - it's excellent - smoothed out the whole drivetrain.

I've been running redline lightweight shockproof in the rear diff and TC (+ gearbox) for a few years without issue - it's excellent - smoothed out the whole drivetrain.
Great thanks! How often would you recommend changing it?

I'd do it as per service manual to be safe - but redline says you can extend the change intervals with their oils....