I fitted new tappets to my rear bank last night as one was buggered... all seemed well in the beginning, but on the 80km drive to work it started to rattle worse and worse and now I'm down a cylinder. Any thoughts to what I mat have stuffed up?

Did you prime them? If so how long for?

Prime before fitting? No. Idled car for 15 mins once fitted. I'm actually beginning to suspect a broken valve spring.. tappet failure shouldn't cause whole cylinder failure.

Priming can often be a bad idea as they should be bled back prior to fitting so as to allow the valve to be completely closed.

When you fitted them, did you clean out the rocker arms well in particular the bleed holes at the top of each rocker, may be you have a blocked bleed hole and the lifter is not getting oil flowing through it

I thoroughly cleaned them in diesel and with am air gun. mind you they were ultra clean already.

Did you double check your rocker arm bolts were on tight? This might cause a tappet or 2 to fall out.

Went through and confirmed the tension of each bolt in order 3 times before I put the cover back on :/

Trust me, if it was a broken valve spring you would know about it.

Normal priming practice is to leave the tappets nipple facing upwards in oil to prime them.

But it could be what Mal was getting on to, a blocked bleed valve. Wouldn't be able to tell you for sure without taking it all back apart again. Good luck, hope the damage is minimal (ei: one/two tappets)!

Uhhhhhh... um... hrrrrmmmm.... ****?

http://cdn.streamzoo.com/si_4620953_e6nwszs2pk_lr.jpg

That is the result of using a seemingly identical bolt after the shitty torque wrench snapped one during fitting.

Time to find someone locally wrecking a 3rd Gen to pinch the rocker arm and a bolt I think!

Thank god it was intake side is all I can say.

They don't look very identical to be honest

The replacement was 2mm shorter and the unthreaded shaft was 1mm narrower. I think the problem was in the length, apparently 2mm are critical.

That is the result of using a seemingly identical bolt after the shitty torque wrench snapped one during fitting.



What torque were you doing them up to?

Wow you have more balls than me to take a gamble on that, but with that said hopefully it teaches a few people how careful you need to be.

Looks like you'll just need a new shaft and bolt right?

That may not be all thats #@$%ed though!

. . . . . . . how careful you need to be.

Looks like you'll just need a new shaft and bolt right?

Careful how? If the replacement bolt has the same number on the head, there should be no problem. The bolt that popped out looks like it's lost it's thread. Didn't try to wind it down a damaged thread or stripped hole, did you?

He needs a new shaft, a new bolt, and a good look at the condition of the thread down the hole. Also, it should be free of oil. Trying to wind a bolt down into a blind hole partly filled with oil is a good way to get hydraulic lock. If you then force the bolt down to get it to seat, you will strip threads or break bolts. Never go above the designated torque, if a bolt doesn't seat, don't force it - take it out and investigate why.

I was tightening to "30.7"nm. POS torque wrench didn't agree with that, its well uncalibrated, not to mention that the original bolt must have been really fatigued.

Nothing else should be damaged apart from the shaft, bolt, possible thread, and possibly fouled spark plug. Its not like anything else was interfered with in the process. Had it been the the exhaust side rocker arm, I'd be in a world of pain right now!

I'm no expert
but
because of where the rockers... rock.. on the tubes
would it be better to replace that entire intake side assembly if you go 2nd hand ones so that the wear is matched between rockers and tubes?
^this is a question, not an advice.

On the locomotives I work on.. Whenever I change a cam section (cam is split into multiple parts) I always change the rocker wheel out too.

Interesting, and it makes sense. Munkeymanz has been a huge lifesaver and offered me the parts I require from his dead 6G74.. so I'll retain all of the arms as well as the shaft :) I can't say I'm overly upset about this whole thing, its a good learning curve :)

Uhhhhhh... um... hrrrrmmmm.... ****?

http://cdn.streamzoo.com/si_4620953_e6nwszs2pk_lr.jpg

That is the result of using a seemingly identical bolt after the shitty torque wrench snapped one during fitting.

Time to find someone locally wrecking a 3rd Gen to pinch the rocker arm and a bolt I think!

HOLY SHIT!!!! HOLLEEEEEEE SHIIIIT!!!

Dude....Duuuude! OMG... you are so god-damned lucky. Always use the right bolts for the job, be super careful with torque wrenches and never use one with a wide range for critical stuff like cam cap bolts. I use a 5-25Nm wrench and then give it a tweak but I always try to use my "feel" experience for how much torque is being applied. You can never be too careful.

At least your engine is clean; did you notice the awesome job the previous owner did on mine?

The issue is not only the bolt and the fact the bolt is most likely not the same rating as the one that came out but I would say you have pulled the thread out of the head, this is an easy fix with a Helicoil.

You need to understand the pressures those rockers get pushed to, if you use a 4 tensile bolt if it does not sheer it will most likely pull the thread off the bolt, I have seen this before. Then the thread in the head is damaged. Also when you got out the old broken bolt, if you damaged the thread in the head then regardless of what bolt you use it will still do the same thng

Use a M8 x 1.25 helicoil on that bolt to be 100% sure it will not happen again, from memory you will need to get a 8.3mm drill bit to drill the old hole out, you then use the supplied tap with the kit, wind in the helicoil and you end up with a stainless steel thread.

Yeah I'm definitely going to helicoil it. I actually put the replacement bolt in a different hole to where the broken one was.. but the broken one didn't damage the thread at all so all is well.

HOLY SHIT!!!! HOLLEEEEEEE SHIIIIT!!!

Dude....Duuuude! OMG... you are so god-damned lucky. Always use the right bolts for the job, be super careful with torque wrenches and never use one with a wide range for critical stuff like cam cap bolts. I use a 5-25Nm wrench and then give it a tweak but I always try to use my "feel" experience for how much torque is being applied. You can never be too careful.

At least your engine is clean; did you notice the awesome job the previous owner did on mine?

Yeah I know, I got stupidly lucky eh :) If you want ultra clean internals..LiquiMoly Engine Detox is amazing... but I dare say that it did such a good job of cleaning up the gunk that it clogged a tappet and caused the problem in the first place.

helicoils are the shit, there is a pressure gauge tester we make at work, and we helicoil the holes for the gauges as the unit is rated to test gauges to 10,000psi. i had the prob of my lower ccontrol arms on my diamante (multilink) having stripped holes in the sub frame. it was an M12 fine thread hole, 12mm diameter, but lukily 9/16 UNF has a drill hole of 11.8 so i retapped and all was good.

Props to Munkymanz (Andrew) for my new parts! I almost couldn't leave because we were sharing so many stories.

The diesel is already hard at work cleaning the dirty dirty parts :)

http://cdn.streamzoo.com/si_4705660_y935p90an7_lr.jpg

niiice! looks like fun, yet complicated for me! i've never had the balls to pull the engine apart. would love to one day with something get a good knowledge base on how everything really works

Props to Munkymanz (Andrew) for my new parts! I almost couldn't leave because we were sharing so many stories.

Yeah was good fun. Hope the parts clean up and live a new life in your engine!

Mmmmm, smooth drivey goodness! I got the replacement shaft preeeetty shiny before I fitted it!

Good work mate, glad to hear it worked out for you.

I dropped a cylinder again this morning... I expect ill find another snapped shaft this arvo. Ffs. wtf is going on with this bloody thing!!

I dropped a cylinder again this morning... I expect ill find another snapped shaft this arvo. Ffs. wtf is going on with this bloody thing!!

OK that's pretty weird. Can you confirm that you're cleaning out the bolt holes first with some compressed air, and torquing the bolts down appropriately? You need to make sure you torque the bolts down a little bit at a time so that the shaft is evenly mounted.

Maybe it's the other head this time; did you go back there and re-check your work after the first incident?

You need to make sure you torque the bolts down a little bit at a time so that the shaft is evenly mounted.



Those shafts are pretty solid and having one snap is certainly unusual. But yeah, I can't think of any other reason why one should snap. They need to be tightened down gradually moving from one bolt to the next so the whole shaft lowers evenly onto their seats, against the resistance of valves that are being forced open. Once seated the torque wrench gets used. And by that I mean an ACCURATE torque wrench.
(There are locating dowels on the head, usually at the bolts that carry the oil up to the rocker shafts - worth checking those are ok - undamaged and sitting correctly.)

Sigh.....there are no dowels on the head.....I know you are trying to help ate but dont post what you don't know

Wood, the rails do only go one way around and have seen a similar issue when someone installed the rails with the oil feeds facing up, it pretty much ate the rails

Also, did the last bolt snap or just pull out

Sigh.....there are no dowels on the head...


Ooops! Thanks for the clarification, never been inside that engine to that extent, just going on what I know from earlier Mitsu engines.

I did know about the oil holes needing to face in the right direction though. lol

I got a SMS from Woob this evening, i think he may have dodged a bullet and it's all good.

Wood, the rails do only go one way around and have seen a similar issue when someone installed the rails with the oil feeds facing up, it pretty much ate the rails

It would probably hammer like a sunofabitch too eh, since no oil would get to the lifters?

Anyway Woob did you watch my video because it did cover how to make sure the rails lined up right.

I got a SMS from Woob this evening, i think he may have dodged a bullet and it's all good.

Don't hold back on us man, tell us what's going on.

Don't hold back on us man, tell us what's going on.

Woob's story, not mine! haha but to keep you from too much suspense and excitement, he mentioned something about loose bolts (again), shaft not seated correctly but most importantly no damage.

Woob's story, not mine! haha but to keep you from too much suspense and excitement, he mentioned something about loose bolts (again), shaft not seated correctly but most importantly no damage.

NAUGHTY WOOB! I'm sending a digital slap all the way from Victoria! LOL

I can't say for sure... the 2 middle bolts were half out.. its a bit odd, the only thing I can think is that it wasn't seated properly when I fitted it, though I did inspect the positioning before putting the cover back on. Refitted and all is well for now... if it does it again, I'm buying a fine adjustment torque wrench.

I also bought a new AFM... didn't improve anything. The idle was hunting and stalling.. engine light coming on periodically, but ran a bit better on acceleration frustratingly.

Anyone have any idea wtf might be going on with the supposed AFM issue?

I have a really good question for everyone... what the hell is the magic trick to ensuring that rocker cover gaskets don't leak?? I torque the bolts up in an alternating like a wheel until all bolts are hand tight.. this usually takes about 5 rotations of each bolt to ensure they are all even..
Yet my success rate of having no leaks is about 50%. Its driving me mad!!

I always make sure the gasket is seated in the groove on the rocker cover and then lightly press the inner groove against the gasket keeping it in place. Allowing me to freely place the cover on the heads then tighten them down from the middle out alternating each side. Hasn't leaked yet.

I have a really good question for everyone... what the hell is the magic trick to ensuring that rocker cover gaskets don't leak?? I torque the bolts up in an alternating like a wheel until all bolts are hand tight.. this usually takes about 5 rotations of each bolt to ensure they are all even..
Yet my success rate of having no leaks is about 50%. Its driving me mad!!

I'm with you there mate. Check this:

http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79373

Mm, I had to do a fair bit of tin realigning when I took the rear cover off, it was in a hideous state! I've had to do this with each car I've owned as the covers have been torqued down to a substantial tightness.

Oh well now its just a matter of skill to getting the seal perfect :S

Take some craze, will help you concentrate.

Kk, brb!

**** this Mitsubishi can burn in hell. 7 attempts at getting a proper seal around the rear bank rocker cover and now its pissing out from a spot that its never leaked from! The design is a total ****ing joke! Wtf is wrong with 2 flat surfaces and a bit of goo like everyone else does??

Tomorrow I'm going to fill the seal with so much ****ing gasket goo its not funny... try leaking then you piece of shit! Every god damn time I redo it is like 40 minutes down the drain. I'm ready to burn the ****ing thing to the ground.

Have you tried different rocker covers? Yours might be warped for whatever reason

Yeah I'm going to hit up the wrecker today and grab a replacement, I might have gotten all Fast and Furious, popped the welds on the manifold and whatnot.

YOu need to reshape the area the gasket sits in mate

It is double layer, support along the outside, gently tap from inside and narrow the gap, the gasket should push into the gap and stay there

If you have gooped it up, may be sealant between the layers causing it to spread too much and will never seal again

I reshaped it before the first fitting, got the whole thing sitting pretty satisfactorily.. the only bit that was loose, and seemed too loose to get tight was the bits around the bolts. I've just bought some Toyota gasket maker which I'm told is like the best one in existence.. I'll give it a crack and see how I go. No goo has been used before now.

i use the red gasket goo on my rocker covers, even if they are mint i still apply a tiny amount to help seal. guarantees no leaks. the manual specifies you use some in the corners of the cam arch

i use the red gasket goo on my rocker covers, even if they are mint i still apply a tiny amount to help seal. guarantees no leaks. the manual specifies you use some in the corners of the cam arch

No cam arch on the SOHC motors.

Hrrm... anyone know if an AFM would cease to function properly when fitted upside down? This would explain why both mine, and a replacement didn't work after I relocated my intake piping.

Hrrm... anyone know if an AFM would cease to function properly when fitted upside down? This would explain why both mine, and a replacement didn't work after I relocated my intake piping.
mines sitting vertical down behind the bar on the intake side of the sc and its ok

Yeah mine was running fine when it was vertical, its only since I relocated it and its horizontal and upside down that it won't work.

I have been running mine upside down for the past half year without issue. I can disconnect it and the car will idle like crap.

I can run without mine due to map sensor.. but I either need to get the car returned for map sensor alone or sort out the afm.. atm I'm chewing through fuel and the car drives horribly on cold start!

I think I just sealed the rocker cover... Toyota gasket goo is the shiznit!

I think I just sealed the rocker cover... Toyota gasket goo is the shiznit!

Do you have to buy this from Toyota? Can you name the exact product for me too as I may need to resort to this for mine. Pretty sure it's still weeping and whilst I'm happy to take it off - AGAIN - to check the seal channels, I'd rather not repeat the process twice.

Toyota black FIPG gasket maker. I'm running just that with no gasket and I do believe I finally win on the 9th removal of the rear rocker cover and 6L of full synth later.

I can confirm that the Toyota gasket maker is 100% effective with no other gasket being used. $40 well spent and still have half a tube left :D

On the other hand, my AFM issue remains unresolved.. I plugged it in the morning, drove fine for about 8km, then the car began to shudder worse and worse periodically.. does the AFM operate in conjunction with the O2 sensor? Possible that's the issue? It would make sense only causing issues once the car is warmed up and O2 is in open loop.

does the AFM operate in conjunction with the O2 sensor? Possible that's the issue? It would make sense only causing issues once the car is warmed up and O2 is in open loop.

Being pedantic: when the engine is warmed up, the ECU operates in closed loop mode relying on the O2 sensor - open loop mode doesn't use the O2 sensor and applies when the engine is cold or at WOT.

The MAF, which I think is what you're referring to as the AFM, contains three sensors used by the ECU:
airflow, intake air temperature and barometric pressure (though the baro sensor is only in the TH & later). All three are used in both open and closed loop modes. If either the IAT or baro sensors fail, the ECU will "limp" with probably not much noticeable impact, however a failing airflow sensor is much more likely to cause engine running issues as the ECU will have little idea about how much fuel to deliver. I don't know if these ECUs can effectively operate with only an oxygen sensor and no airflow sensor - I suspect not, but even if it did I don't think the engine would run particularly well at other than constant revs & load.

It will run with no difference at all with no Barra Sensor, I often use teh J series ECU in the F series cars or E series cars when running either a Manual or a later model Transmission

I think you really need to get a scan of the car when the issue is happening, this may then iron out your issue

Yeah we were chatting about it last night. As soon as I've got a free minute I'll be straight down to the local Mitsi to get scanned. I'm.guessing its going to throw a few codes to make things interesting!

I was tightening to "30.7"nm. POS torque wrench didn't agree with that, its well uncalibrated, not to mention that the original bolt must have been really fatigued.



[...] Can you confirm that you're cleaning out the bolt holes first with some compressed air, and torquing the bolts down appropriately? You need to make sure you torque the bolts down a little bit at a time so that the shaft is evenly mounted. [...]

^
What Kaldek said plus priming the bolts just a little will rid you of the clicking noise, whenever you get resistance before the final click of the torque wrench.
There are a couple of things that lead to bad torque; using a torque near the end of the specified scale (those wrenches work best smack in the middle of it), also the more extenders you use the more the readings will be inaccurate. After every use they need to be zero'd out aswell, or they might be sitting on a certain torque for weeks/months.

It will run with no difference at all with no Barra Sensor, I often use teh J series ECU in the F series cars or E series cars when running either a Manual or a later model Transmission

Unless the periphery bit is set not to use Baro sensor in the rom (use hardcoded 100.45 kpa rather than ADC value), the ECU will trip and go to limp mode. I've proven this plenty of times with all the dev ECUs i've got here.

Baro value is used by a lot of things, last i checked there was about 20 or so routines that used the baro reading. Idle routines, timing calculations, you name it. Need to either set hardcoded value, or feed it a baro signal.

Desite the value being hardcoded in the TE/TF, there is still lookup and tables that have valid values in them (ie baro vs ignition trim). using Baro vs Ign Trim for example, omitting baro value with reduce timing by about 3-4 degrees if the value is just 0 (or no sensor present, thus no reading). 100kpa is approx normal sea level pressure, timing trim is about 0-1 degrees in this table.

Yeah we were chatting about it last night. As soon as I've got a free minute I'll be straight down to the local Mitsi to get scanned. I'm.guessing its going to throw a few codes to make things interesting!

Short Pin 1 and 4 in OBD connector, CEL will flash codes out... no need for scan tool.

Omg really? I swear Ive read a few times that 3rd gens don't flash codes... this would be epic!

Sooo.. which direction do the pun numbers run? :)

Omg really? I swear Ive read a few times that 3rd gens don't flash codes... this would be epic!

Sooo.. which direction do the pun numbers run? :)

Bench ECUs i have here do.

http://www.evoscan.com/technical-vehicle-manuals/12-mitsubishi-diagnostics

about half way down that page: "1994+ Mitsubishi Diagnostic Trouble Code Retrieval Without Scan Tool"