This is a followup thread to my other one about spring removal.

Megatron recommends a rear sway bar upgrade before a strut brace. Question is though, since the TL already has a "better" rear sway bar than the TJ, is there a big difference between that and the Whiteline sway bar?

I'm fitting King springs Low all-round by the way.

Actually, I should clarify what I'm looking for. Basically I want reduced body roll, and to feel that the front wheels are pulling me through the corner rather than pushing into understeer.

TL doesn't have a better sway bar. On the TJ, only the sports models had a rear sway bar. On the TLs, that sway bar became factory fitted across all models.

I have a strut brace on my TJ VR-X (w/ factory sway bar). It made a difference, but not huge. Improved steering feel and front end grip, but made no difference to body roll.

Go the rear sway bar first. Or just get the strut brace as well lol

Rear Sway Bar will stiffen up the rear end..

Watching Simons Verada with the rear sway bar set on stiff, I remember him getting the rear end out on a few corners. (Thats with coilovers though)

SuFz :ninja:

OK but anyone here with a TL/TW who has upgraded to a Whiteline rear sway bar? I'd like the most relevant comparison.

TL doesn't have a better sway bar. On the TJ, only the sports models had a rear sway bar. On the TLs, that sway bar became factory fitted across all models.

I have a strut brace on my TJ VR-X (w/ factory sway bar). It made a difference, but not huge. Improved steering feel and front end grip, but made no difference to body roll.

Go the rear sway bar first. Or just get the strut brace as well lol

All TL have rear sway bar standard, only TJ and earlier did not have them except sports and vrx

I would disagree with the strut brace being useless without a stiffer rear sway bar, the std one is not bad as it is, you dont want to get into a situation where the back end is tail happy in a FWD if you can avoid it. Other issue with these whiteline is that they tend to break mounts and also often end up hitting more than they miss

My old TF had a TL back end in it, I did try a whiteline sway bar and to be honest, it did not stay on ther for long as I was sick of it hitting things, took it off and at the end of the day with the rest of the car having been set up properly the std sway bar was just fine

My old TF had a TL back end in it, I did try a whiteline sway bar and to be honest, it did not stay on ther for long as I was sick of it hitting things, took it off and at the end of the day with the rest of the car having been set up properly the std sway bar was just fine

I'm interested in what's on your list of things for "set up properly"?

So far I'm only doing springs and a good alignment.

Looking at what Mal has said.. There's many different views on "set up properly"

As an example..

Rear Adjustable Sway Bar
Adjustable Strut Brace
Coilovers - 10/8kg

Thats a "properly set up" car in my opinion, others beg to differ.

eg. Others seem to say

Boge Turbo/Koni Adjustable Shocks
King or Dobinson Low Springs
Sway Bar
Strut Brace

SuFz :ninja:

Don't mean to hijack this thread, but does a TL/TW sway bar bolt straight up onto the all the prior model sedans? Any serious modification necessary Mal or did you fit the entire rear subframe w/suspension and all?

I do remember a thread discussing the differences between a stock 17mm ones fitted to the sport/vrx model's magna (verada GTV) and the whiteline one and the general conclusion was that there isn't a huge difference between them unless you really push your car hard. The rest of your setup will be more important for the car's handling. Get a front strut brace, a good suspension + shock combo and you'll be set.

Don't mean to hijack this thread, but does a TL/TW sway bar bolt straight up onto the all the prior model sedans? Any serious modification necessary Mal or did you fit the entire rear subframe w/suspension and all?

I do remember a thread discussing the differences between a stock 17mm ones fitted to the sport/vrx model's magna (verada GTV) and the whiteline one and the general conclusion was that there isn't a huge difference between them unless you really push your car hard. The rest of your setup will be more important for the car's handling. Get a front strut brace, a good suspension + shock combo and you'll be set.

A stock swaybar wont mate up with pre TL models that didnt come with a swaybar standard. The rear subframe is missing the bolt holes and mount points

A proper set up sorry guys are NOT coil overs, coil overs are for competition cars where they do not get used daily, get used on normal roads and will generally be rebuilt after every 1 or 2 events. Has anyone ever wondered why Koni do not make street coil over sets but you can get them made up for track and rally cars and are considered some of the best out there. If Koni were so hot on coil overs then the commodore ones would be available at the very least, Koni themselves when people ask about coilovers for street use will be the first to state that htey are not designed for that sort of car and recommend against it. In a street car the main reason people use Coilovers is so they can go fully sick low, this is often then used with none of the suspension bushes being reset to accomodate the new height and no consideration to the rest of the suspension geometry and travel. Personally I would rather use bricks under my car than ever have coil overs, that is my opinion from both experience personally and also in speaking to companies who have been building race and street suspension for more years than a lot of us have been around.

For street use, keeping in mind that you have also to take into account comfort, the ability for the car to retain traction on off camber roads, through pot holes, through various driving conditions both road and weather wise (without changing tyres every time you take the car out of the garage to suit the conditions) the best all round set up in my opinion on a Magna is the Boge or Koni with Dobinsons, Kings are also good but my personal prefrence are the Dobinsons.

Sway bar, if you want to run the risk by all means upgrade the rear bar, be prepared for cracked sub frames and sway bar knock, strut braces are NOT adjustable, the adjsutment on the brace is so you can make it for properly between your towers and have it sitting there comfortably, those who tighten them up are playing with themselves and also are putting strain on the front end that does not need to be there.

Many AMC members have seen how my wagon hits the corners and have commented, keep in mind that my wagon DOES NOT have IRS either, there is yet to be a sedan that I can not keep up with in the twisties.

Bilstein make a good range of "streetable" coilovers.

I have the 22mm rear sway bar on my KL Verada. The difference is like night and day - highly recommend this upgrade.

Now the disclaimer; while I haven't cracked the subframe, or torn a link bracket off the control arm (yet), I have gone through two sets of sway bar bushes in the four months the sway bar has been on the car. Four highly "stressed" months as there a few nice back roads around here.

I've been in contact with Whiteline about it and they've relisted the bushes with a different part number, and, they sent me a FREE set of the new bushes. So far so good.

For street use, keeping in mind that you have also to take into account comfort, the ability for the car to retain traction on off camber roads, through pot holes, through various driving conditions both road and weather wise (without changing tyres every time you take the car out of the garage to suit the conditions) the best all round set up in my opinion on a Magna is the Boge or Koni with Dobinsons, Kings are also good but my personal prefrence are the Dobinsons.

I hear you loud & clear mate. So basically I need to forgo the strut brace and sway bar really and focus on the springs & shocks.

I'm surprised nobody is mentioning getting a good alignment yet. Surely this is just as important as what parts are fitted.

I believe it's because the wheel alignment is taken as a given..

As I said everyone has their own opinion and you need to create your own..

Be it from personal experience.. Others experiences or reviews.

I like the way my car drives and feels with coilovers.. Then again I also like the ride I get from the 20s..

All the best mate..

SuFz

I'm surprised nobody is mentioning getting a good alignment yet. Surely this is just as important as what parts are fitted.
On a factory Magna, the toe is all you can adjust. You need aftermarket kits (or coilovers!) if you want to adjust your camber.

On a factory Magna, the toe is all you can adjust. You need aftermarket kits (or coilovers!) if you want to adjust your camber.

Or adjustable strut tops will also allow this

I will sit here in 18 months and watch all these coil overs starting to get rebuilt lol

On a factory Magna, the toe is all you can adjust. You need aftermarket kits (or coilovers!) if you want to adjust your camber.

LOL, man you guys love your coilovers eh! Didn't know that only toe was adjustable.

Or adjustable strut tops will also allow this
I've never seen adjustable strut tops for Magnas. Are they an off the shelf product or are they custom made, how expensive are they, and are they front only or both front and rear? I'm pretty curious.


LOL, man you guys love your coilovers eh! Didn't know that only toe was adjustable.
For what it's worth, I actually have springs/shocks (Kings + KYBs), and am hesitant to go for coilovers. But it's a fact that they're camber adjustable. I also have camber kits F + R on my car - they're for a Diamante, and I bought them off eBay USA.

There is no such thing as a camber adjustable rear shock or top for a Magna, the shock at the back only holds the car off the ground, nothing else, who ever has told you that you can adjust the back end with a strut top should not be allowed to sell them lol

The KYB would be imporved greatly with some Boge as Grelise would agree, front strut tops are available, not the sort of thing you go to autobahn to get but can be done.

I will sit here in 18 months and watch all these coil overs starting to get rebuilt lol

Fundamentally I don't think there's anything wrong with Coilovers. I mean, heck, all motorbikes use coilovers for the rear suspension and I put 130,000km on one before I replaced it.

However the problem really is that due to where the demand is, most coilovers for cars are probably designed around track use. I have however seen coilovers that give a better compliant and supple ride than, say, Bilstein shocks and springs. So there's no reason coilovers can't offer a better ride, and they are indeed infinitely tunable.

But having ridden bikes for a while - including on the racetrack - the ability to tune can be a bigger problem than not having it. When the ability is there, uneducated people start tinkering in the attempt to find a setting that works for them, and all they end up doing is getting totally lost.

Considering that in MotoGP right now, Valentino Rossi's expert mechanics can't find a setting for him that works on his bike, any amateur should be very careful before tweaking things like spring preload and damping hardness.

I hear you loud & clear mate. So basically I need to forgo the strut brace and sway bar really and focus on the springs & shocks.

I'm surprised nobody is mentioning getting a good alignment yet. Surely this is just as important as what parts are fitted.

Well you can see that there's a few differing opinions on the matter lol lol

Are you fitting new shocks with the Kings? If you are, which ones? If not, why aren't you? Fitting a set of Boges to the Kings will make a huge difference from stock anyway & help with reducing the 'roll. Fit them & then decide how much further you want/ need to go. If you're not happy with that, then you need to go further.

I personally would aim for both the strut brace & the rear bar. Keep in mind what Madmagna has said regarding the swaybars. (But also keep in mind that Madmagna is in the repair business so if anyone is going to hear about all the 'bad' issues regarding aftermarket parts, it'll be him.:)) If there's any hint of the sway bar not sitting correctly, or hitting other components, contact Whiteline ASAP for assistance/ changeover/ refund, etc. For the most though, there hasn't been that many issues with these bars.

Start with the bar on soft & work your way up to the stiffest you setting that you desire. Keep an eye on your toe settings at the rear if you do decide to whack it up to the stiffest setting. Toe out will make the car tail happy, so zero or .5mm toe in will stop that happening. Fitting the strut brace is straight forward for an immediate result. Mitsu obviously thought so too as they fitted them to various 380 variants - maybe all, not sure? Front toe settings need to be zero, or as close to it as possible.

Or adjustable strut tops will also allow this

I will sit here in 18 months and watch all these coil overs starting to get rebuilt lol

Well K Sport reckon that their coilovers should last approximately 50,000 before having issues; however there's no rebuild kits, only replacement struts. Roughly $250 per corner so it's as cheap, or similar as a Koni rebuild? The Kido coilovers I'd imagine will be a simlar fix but as I don't own a set, I haven't investigated this. lol


I've never seen adjustable strut tops for Magnas. Are they an off the shelf product or are they custom made, how expensive are they, and are they front only or both front and rear? I'm pretty curious.


For what it's worth, I actually have springs/shocks (Kings + KYBs), and am hesitant to go for coilovers. But it's a fact that they're camber adjustable. I also have camber kits F + R on my car - they're for a Diamante, and I bought them off eBay USA.

Wilkinson's Suspension (http://www.wilkinsonsuspension.com.au/) make camber/ caster strut tops for Magna's. I've had a set previously & while I had no real issues with them, finding a place that I trusted to set them up correctly hasn't been so easy. Far better to get a set of camber adjustable strut tops from K-Mac. (http://www.k-mac.com.au/) I have no idea of the quality of these though.

Are you fitting new shocks with the Kings? If you are, which ones? If not, why aren't you?

No, not yet. I intend to though. Figured I would spend more time investigating shocks as damping is more important to me. As a motorbike guy in particular, correct damping is paramount.

Kido's use 50mm strut inserts..

Quite straight forward to rebuild..

SuFz

A proper set up sorry guys are NOT coil overs, coil overs are for competition cars where they do not get used daily, get used on normal roads and will generally be rebuilt after every 1 or 2 events. Has anyone ever wondered why Koni do not make street coil over sets but you can get them made up for track and rally cars and are considered some of the best out there. If Koni were so hot on coil overs then the commodore ones would be available at the very least, Koni themselves when people ask about coilovers for street use will be the first to state that htey are not designed for that sort of car and recommend against it. In a street car the main reason people use Coilovers is so they can go fully sick low, this is often then used with none of the suspension bushes being reset to accomodate the new height and no consideration to the rest of the suspension geometry and travel. Personally I would rather use bricks under my car than ever have coil overs, that is my opinion from both experience personally and also in speaking to companies who have been building race and street suspension for more years than a lot of us have been around.

For street use, keeping in mind that you have also to take into account comfort, the ability for the car to retain traction on off camber roads, through pot holes, through various driving conditions both road and weather wise (without changing tyres every time you take the car out of the garage to suit the conditions) the best all round set up in my opinion on a Magna is the Boge or Koni with Dobinsons, Kings are also good but my personal prefrence are the Dobinsons.

Sway bar, if you want to run the risk by all means upgrade the rear bar, be prepared for cracked sub frames and sway bar knock, strut braces are NOT adjustable, the adjsutment on the brace is so you can make it for properly between your towers and have it sitting there comfortably, those who tighten them up are playing with themselves and also are putting strain on the front end that does not need to be there.

Many AMC members have seen how my wagon hits the corners and have commented, keep in mind that my wagon DOES NOT have IRS either, there is yet to be a sedan that I can not keep up with in the twisties.

Thanks Mal, all good advice. Have personally fitted a larger rear sway bar from Mako in sydney. Now have a rear bar 22mm with front bar 23mm from factory, Yellow Koni's all round. I chose standard height Lovells on the rear as they are a bit softer (I have a bad back) but that softer spring means there is some give in the rear otherwise it is tail happy. Front strut brace correctley installed is a MUST to stop the towers from flexing.
Also, had no problems with bushes or mounting brackets on my TL VRX AWD (as yet) on the rear. Just a massive improvement in rear stability but I think I would prefer a 20mm bar compared to the 22mm as 20mm is a big enough improvement.