Hi guys,

First of all I'm a new member, so g'day all!

Had my magna for a couple of years now but just starting to get the itch for some mods.
Got a 3.5 '02 exec for $5500 and for that sort of money it's a whole lot of car. I was into skylines before i bought my magna, and as far as handling goes... well... no... but the torque of these things is insane!

In the middle of a manual conversion at the moment, got 17's, will do rear muffler as it sounds worth it (bang for buck) and a few other things, but anyway I was researching plugs, as I'm due for the rear bank replacement, and came across this dyno sheet comparing different NGK plugs:

http://www.sparkplugs.com/sparkplug411.asp?kw=NGK+Dyno+Results&mfid=0

I was surprised you could get almost 3hp out of a decent iridium plug, and almost 6lb torque. Thought it might be interesting for some to see a dyno comparison as plug performance is speculated on a lot.

I settled on 6 of the iridium IX off ebay for $80 delivered, no point messing around with 3 cheapies at the front, especially since decent ones will last 3 times as long.

AMSOIL
Engine oil is not a topic i've read a lot about on here, but for people who like their cars I personally think it's one of the most important.

I remember talking to a mechanic about 10 years ago and one day he pulled me into the corner of his shed and whispered (no joke) "you want any amsoil?" I didn't have the slightest clue what he was talking about and why he was being so odd. Anyway it turned out that he was a supplier of an American synthetic oil called Amsoil and he was a bit toey about it. Apparently he had seen other mechanics that used and distributed it persecuted and harassed by 'big oil'. He later told me that he knew for a fact that "most" race engines including Touring Car, F1 etc. were running Amsoil in their engine but had Mobile 1 plastered all over their bonnets and spoilers (Amsoil don't pay for sponsorship rights, they just happen to make the best oil in the world apparently). He himself had Amsoil in his van for over 100,000 km and the oil was clean as (looked like beer without the bubbles).

Today I started researching what oil I should use in the engine and box once the conversion is complete, and again I stumbled upon Amsoil on the net. After reading up on some of the testing and research that's been done on it (very impressive), I decided to give my old mechanic a call and order some for both the engine and gearbox.

Using an Amsoil nano filter it looks like you can get (conservatively) 40 - 50,000 ks on a single oil change, with almost NO engine wear. The lack of engine wear is the most impressive thing. They have had fleets of diesel trucks on this stuff and found the engines just don't deteriorate. Apparently they were forced to reduce their scheduled oil change recommendations by authorities in the USA to around 40,000km for road cars even though testing showed 100,000 no problem using one of their filters.

Anyway, sorry about the long winded thread, thought I'd throw that out there. Any thoughts? Experiences?

Magmad

You can't go wrong with Iridium plugs, but take the power "improvement" claim with a grain of salt, a few HP and ft/lb of torque difference is well within the error limits of testing conditions - a slight difference in air temperature for instance can have a big effect. Often dyno readings are repeated until the testers get the results they want.

By all means try the Amsoil combo and leave it in your car for a few years. Oil is meant to clean the engine of piston ring blowby, carbon build up etc. (even new engines have some) An oil that stays clean for 50,000 km must be magic. Unfortunately I don't believe in magic oil, filters or spark plugs. lol

You can't go wrong with Iridium plugs, but take the power "improvement" claim with a grain of salt, a few HP and ft/lb of torque difference is well within the error limits of testing conditions - a slight difference in air temperature for instance can have a big effect.

By all means try the Amsoil combo and leave it in your car for a few years. Oil is meant to clean the engine of piston ring blowby, carbon build up etc. (even new engine have some) An oil that stays clean for 50,000 km must be magic.

Not really max. Modern engines are up to 30,000 - 40,000km per oil change for some makes such as BMW and MB.

Neo's diester based oils are known to still be OK after 50,000km. Obviously done with an oil analysis.
http://www.neosyntheticoil.com/

This stuff aint cheap but it is VERY good. Many race cars run this stuff

Sounds a bit far fetched to me.. It may be true to its word but there is nothing from stopping fabricated tests and reviews from making their way around. 100k km on the same oil and having it come out looking the same as it went it doesnt sound even remotely possible. Maybe in a car with an oil leak that has been continuously topped up over that time :P

I would expect that if you were to run a conventional synthetic oil for the same amount of time it would yield similar results, but they advertise standard servicing intervals because hell, the more you replace it, the more they sell!

Exactly. Oil consumption means the constant top-ups ensures the oil stays fresh haha

Modern euro turbos use HEAPS of oil

Sounds a bit far fetched to me.. It may be true to its word but there is nothing from stopping fabricated tests and reviews from making their way around. 100k km on the same oil and having it come out looking the same as it went it doesnt sound even remotely possible. Maybe in a car with an oil leak that has been continuously topped up over that time :P

I would expect that if you were to run a conventional synthetic oil for the same amount of time it would yield similar results, but they advertise standard servicing intervals because hell, the more you replace it, the more they sell!

Very true, why would they insist on 50,000 services when we will happily go every 10,000? Thats not like oil companies!
I think decent plugs, Amsoil +filters (or equivalent) and never service again woot!

You can't go wrong with Iridium plugs, but take the power "improvement" claim with a grain of salt, a few HP and ft/lb of torque difference is well within the error limits of testing conditions - a slight difference in air temperature for instance can have a big effect. Often dyno readings are repeated until the testers get the results they want.

By all means try the Amsoil combo and leave it in your car for a few years. Oil is meant to clean the engine of piston ring blowby, carbon build up etc. (even new engines have some) An oil that stays clean for 50,000 km must be magic. Unfortunately I don't believe in magic oil, filters or spark plugs. lol

I know it's probably within error margins, but I'll take my 1.5 kw and run with it :)

Ok, fantastical stories aside, I'm gonna give this stuff a go and see what happens. I could use 6% better fuel economy (so they say).

On a side note, what do the guys with 200+kw magnas use? Mobil 1? Anyone know?

Yeah I would say it is wishful thinking, and I have simple proof:
- if you can smell the oil in any shape or form, it's because it is evaporating and you're smelling the vapours
- the PCV valves are 'supposedly' pointless when using this oil. The PCV valves evacuate volatile gases given off with the oil and heat. If the oil lasts 50,000km, it mustn't be giving off vapour and therefore no need for the ventilation
plus a whole lot of other reasons.

There is a simple rule of 5-5-5-5 when it comes to oils (each one an additional '5'):
(the 5 rule is 5000km, with each one giving you an additional 5000km).
5 - refined oil. Should not be used in modern vehicles
10 - synthetic/refined blend
15 - 100 percent synthetic
20 - high end synthetic's (like Amsoil, Royal Purple etc), and possibly even Penrite Premium 0W etc.

I highlighted the 15, for 15,000km, because that is probably the 'happy balance' between price and oil performance. Sure you may be able to get more than 20,000km out of the really high end oils, but this depends on the vehicle, use, and even time of year. If the car has a turbo on it, the range will be less due to the heat from the turbo and the oil cooling of it. Likewise in a heavily worked engine, the oil will need changing more often.

So how do they get to these figures like 50,000km? It is actually achievable, in unrealistic scenarios. That is, an already perfectly clean engine, a perfectly 100 percent running engine (most aren't, even things like normal wear and tear, sensor ageing etc), running light loads in cool weather, and doing the 50,000km basically as non-stop as possible in the shortest time possible. In real life scenario's where you have stop/start conditions, an engine with some wear, differing loads on the engine, and the engine being used probably over say, 2 years for the 50,000km, the oil will be pretty um, crap after that time no matter what oil you use.

Thanks mate, seems like a well balanced take on things.

Just another thing, if my cars done about 200k would the recommended 5-30 be too thin? Wondering if these things burn oil?
I once had a sigma and it took about a litre a week on thin oil.

I have done a copy and paste job from another post from a few weeks ago about oil viscosity:

------------------------------
There are so many misconceptions about oil weight, particular the weight of oil at 'room' temperature. It is important to take notice of the latter number '40', the viscosity at operating temperature. The difference between a 10 and a 15 weight at room temperature is not as large as you think. The main difference being the slightly longer time it will take the oil to reach operating temperature and optimum viscosity. Both the 10 and 15 room temperature viscosity rating are too thick to lubricate an engine efficiently. There will be similar 'wear' between both.

I agree that there is little point going from a 5W-30 weight synthetic oil to a 15W-40. There doesn't appear to be any logical reason for doing this, except deliberately straying outside of manufacturer recommendations. If the engine has high K's, it might be necessary to move up to a 5w-40.


Originally Posted by HaydenVRX
Dave i am running 5-60w. would that be why my car takes a while to warm up?

Not quite. The '5' means the oil is not as thick as a '10' or '15' grade oil at room temps. This means it won't take long at all to reach operating temps. At operating temps, the '60' grade is really a bees-dick in difference between a good '30' or '40' oil in terms of viscosity. It is very similar at operating temps. Really, it is more suited to racetracks, where oil temperatures are far higher than normal road driving due to engine being at full load constantly for long periods.

Its difficult to put a 'number' on the absolute optimum oil for each individual engine. Oil pump rates and pressure also play into it. For a well maintained engine, there is little need to stray from manufacturer recommendations.
------------------------------

In short, the 30 weight is probably a bit on the thin side. I reccommend you use Penrite 10w-40 fully synthetic oil. This is a really good oil and now reasonably priced.

Regarding spark plugs, I fitted a set of 6 to both my Pajero and my wife's magna. I used Iridium plugs, imported from USA - mainly because I couldn't get the heat range I wanted in Oz.
I didn't say anything to my iwfe, but she commented after I had done her car that it seemed to have more power. I had observed the same, and deliberately didn't say anything to her about it, so our personal dynos (bums) confirm an increase. The increase seems to be at lower revs. I don't think there is much difference at speed. Minor increase in fuel economy, but well within normal variations (fuel, wind, traffic and road surface).

I don't understand how it can give more power???

I don't understand how it can give more power???

More power is probably the wrong term. An car with old plugs in need of changing will run better with a new set. Think of it as regaining lost power.

So as i thought there should be no difference in different types of plugs.

I have done a copy and paste job from another post from a few weeks ago about oil viscosity:

------------------------------
There are so many misconceptions about oil weight, particular the weight of oil at 'room' temperature. It is important to take notice of the latter number '40', the viscosity at operating temperature. The difference between a 10 and a 15 weight at room temperature is not as large as you think. The main difference being the slightly longer time it will take the oil to reach operating temperature and optimum viscosity. Both the 10 and 15 room temperature viscosity rating are too thick to lubricate an engine efficiently. There will be similar 'wear' between both.

I agree that there is little point going from a 5W-30 weight synthetic oil to a 15W-40. There doesn't appear to be any logical reason for doing this, except deliberately straying outside of manufacturer recommendations. If the engine has high K's, it might be necessary to move up to a 5w-40.


Originally Posted by HaydenVRX
Dave i am running 5-60w. would that be why my car takes a while to warm up?

Not quite. The '5' means the oil is not as thick as a '10' or '15' grade oil at room temps. This means it won't take long at all to reach operating temps. At operating temps, the '60' grade is really a bees-dick in difference between a good '30' or '40' oil in terms of viscosity. It is very similar at operating temps. Really, it is more suited to racetracks, where oil temperatures are far higher than normal road driving due to engine being at full load constantly for long periods.

Its difficult to put a 'number' on the absolute optimum oil for each individual engine. Oil pump rates and pressure also play into it. For a well maintained engine, there is little need to stray from manufacturer recommendations.
------------------------------

In short, the 30 weight is probably a bit on the thin side. I reccommend you use Penrite 10w-40 fully synthetic oil. This is a really good oil and now reasonably priced.

Thanks Dave, you saved me a heap of typing, not sure how many times this Oil crap comes up in questions, I laugh when I read about magical spark plugs and magical oil etc etc. In ALL Magna's I service here I use HPR10 (there are a few exceptions but very few). In my own cars I use HPR10 as well. People who think going to HPR20 or even God forbid HPR30 in a worn motor are really having a lend, most of the oil useage in Magna Motors are from oil leaks, not oil consumption plus either way EVERY motor uses a little oil

One of the above posts mentions the vapour from oil and the PCV valve, the main thing a PCV valve does is evacuate pressure build up from blow by gasses and allows them to be re burnt, most of this is from Combustion not oil vapour.

At the end of the day, people will use what they want, I am not going into an oil debate here so I will simply say I have used Penrite for over 20 years and have never had a single issue, I have tried other oils and many years ago even sent samples off for testing myself to get a better idea (back in my Rotary days, these motors are very hard on oil).

A spark plug will either spark or it won't. If you get good quality plugs like ngk or Bosch, they will be the most reliable to spark when they need to spark. There is no such thing as a plug that sparks better or has a more powerful spark. It's just a spark. The only difference is if they will be reliable for longer.

I don't believe myths about high performance spark plugs. Engine oil is a different story, and one that has been covered dozens of times.

A spark plug plays a very important role, in that it must spark at the exact right time. A "performance" spark plug will not give you more performance per se. Again, using manufacturers specs is ideal, as the spark plug with the optimum temperature has been chosen. A plug that is too hot (long insulation tip) will cause poor running/pinking, as will a worn-out plug. A colder running plug with a shorted insulation tip has a greater tolerence to heat and is more suited to hi performance and turbo engines but only because these engines typically run hotter than a normal NA engine.

One thing no one has mentioned yet regarding spark plugs is their gaps. In the (good) old days us car fiddlers used to remove and regap spark plugs regularly, maybe every 10 to 15,000 km. Lots of electrode wear on some engines, and with low energy ignition systems a misfire could result. It is very important that the Platinum or Iridium plugs are bought pre gapped - most are set to 1.1 mm, NGK part numbers often end with "-11" to show this. If you try to check or adjust the gaps on these, it is possible for the small platinum or iridium bits to come loose when in use, and bounce around inside the combustion chamber and do lots of damage. So don't regap these (the gap doesn't change in use anyway), and look for lost bits when you pull them out. There is a small bit on the tip of the centre electrode, and there can be another on the earth electrode.

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1554094

Some people seem to have mysterious problems with electrodes breaking off . . . . .

http://www.club3g.com/forum/problem-reports/150429-spark-plug-electrode-breaking-off.html

Some people use anti seize on the plug threads too, but you need to use one specially made for spark plugs. It's supposed to make it easier to remove the plugs 5 years/100,000 km down the road, but I don't know. Doing them up to the right torque is probably more important.

(And I'm not buying into any oil debate, other than to say regular oil changes are important no matter how good the oil you use is. lol)

Re spark plugs, the NGK ones used originally for the rear banl (the platinum ones) have a smaller diameter centre electrode than normal. In fact they measure 0.6 mm instead of 0ver 1.2 mm. Iridium plugs have a centre electrode of only 0.4 mm diameter. The purpose for the smaller diameter is because a spark prefers to jump from a point rather than a flat surface, and this helps with the quality of the spark.

Although I have installed Iridiums in both my vehicles, I am concerned about using Iridium plugs because of the erosion potential - there is simply less metal to be eroded away as the spark goes on and on. In my Pajero, the original plugs were replaced at 100000 km. The gap was about 1.6 mm, but fortunately the leads were good enough so that the added voltage required to jump the gap did not cause breakdown of the insulation on the leads. Disturbing the leads to access the plugs was enough to start a chain reaction - lead insulation breakdown, backfire, more breakdown etc etc.

Yesterday, in chasing rough running, I removed all the plugs from the Magna and checked them. They were burning perfectly - as clean as you could ever want, but the gaps were a tad over 1.1 mm. I am certain that I closed the gaps to 1.0 mm when I first installed the iridiums - 7000 km ago. This means that the gap is increasing. I used the coldest grade plugs I could buy (to prevent the gap from opening due to hot running. I am concerned that if this was a true change in plug gaps, I will be looking at removing the plugs (particularly the rear bank) every 20000 km or so. This is not too bad for the Magna (although a damned nuisance), but for the Pajero, I cannot even see the plugs, yet alone get to them. The Pajero runs as sweetly as I could ever want (Shhh!!!), but it too has about 7000 km on Iridiums, and I dread the gaps opening because it uses skinny (5 mm dia) HT leads which are totally inadequate.

Whatever, today I had to go to Canberra (again) and the Magna performed superbly - it seems to like the 1.0 mm gap better than 1.1, which surprises me. And Nemesis - I replaced NGK platimunms with Iridiums when I installed new ignition leads (only one was intermittently crook), but the improvement was really noticeable. Both cars showed marked improvment in low range torque when the Iridiums were installed. My main concern was then and still is, "How long will they last?"

From my personal experience on the dyno with alot of different engines you cant go past plain old ngk copper spark plugs. We put them through hell with 30 to 40 pound of boost and e85, we also notice on 98 that we were able to run 2 to 3 degrees more timing with copper over iridium without det or pinging. Only problem is if your running a "FAT" tune the copper plug foul easily.

From my personal experience on the dyno with alot of different engines you cant go past plain old ngk copper spark plugs. We put them through hell with 30 to 40 pound of boost and e85, we also notice on 98 that we were able to run 2 to 3 degrees more timing with copper over iridium without det or pinging. Only problem is if your running a "FAT" tune the copper plug foul easily.

Agreed, I run copper in my cars, just change them more often however admittedly my current set are approaching 50k by now and have been in 3 engines thus far lol

"In short, the 30 weight is probably a bit on the thin side. I reccommend you use Penrite 10w-40 fully synthetic oil. This is a really good oil and now reasonably priced."

Well I just got the amsoil 5-30 this arvo. 4.7 litres for $60. Does seem a bit excessive, what would penrite be $40? Hopefully it wont burn oil, these engines seem pretty good.

Thanks for the copy/paste job mate, the more info the better.

I just bought Penrite 10w-40, 5Litres for $50
"In short, the 30 weight is probably a bit on the thin side. I reccommend you use Penrite 10w-40 fully synthetic oil. This is a really good oil and now reasonably priced."

Well I just got the amsoil 5-30 this arvo. 4.7 litres for $60. Does seem a bit excessive, what would penrite be $40? Hopefully it wont burn oil, these engines seem pretty good.

Thanks for the copy/paste job mate, the more info the better.

You paid too much for hpr10 but some places do that

Hpr10 is a great all rounder

You paid too much for hpr10 but some places do that

Hpr10 is a great all rounder

I've always used penrite, never had any problems with it either. Seems like a good oil. Never tried the synthetic though for some reason.

It's hard with oil though, I could probably buy $9 oil from k-mart and not have any 'problems'. Might create a bit more engine wear, shorten the life of the motor a bit, but it's hard to define.
If you used Mobil 1 and thrash your car when it's stone cold you'd probably do more damage than using a cheap oil i guess.

A spark plug will either spark or it won't. If you get good quality plugs like ngk or Bosch, they will be the most reliable to spark when they need to spark. There is no such thing as a plug that sparks better or has a more powerful spark. It's just a spark. The only difference is if they will be reliable for longer.

I don't believe myths about high performance spark plugs. Engine oil is a different story, and one that has been covered dozens of times.

Seems a bit weird. So your telling me if you got the cheapest plugs on the market and the best plugs and run dynos all day long interchanging them there would be no pattern? I just find that hard to believe. I linked a dyno chart with average differences of 6 pounds of torque from an independent test, testing the same brand of plug, and still you deny it flat? Wheres your evidence that all plugs = same power output?

Engine oil may have been covered but this search tool is.... less than perfect. What's wrong with posting a link if it's that easy? Amsoil been covered dozens of times has it?

Most of you guys come across as decent blokes, helpful even. Some come across as real heroes.

you shoulda talked to Mal at Mits fixxxxx

Seems a bit weird. So your telling me if you got the cheapest plugs on the market and the best plugs and run dynos all day long interchanging them there would be no pattern? I just find that hard to believe. I linked a dyno chart with average differences of 6 pounds of torque from an independent test, testing the same brand of plug, and still you deny it flat? Wheres your evidence that all plugs = same power output?

Engine oil may have been covered but this search tool is.... less than perfect. What's wrong with posting a link if it's that easy? Amsoil been covered dozens of times has it?

Most of you guys come across as decent blokes, helpful even. Some come across as real heroes.

Already stated, dyno figures are known to vary considerably due to the many variables involved.
It's up to you to explain how some plugs could produce more power. Flame propagation throughout the combustion chamber at the top of the compression stroke starts with a spark, it either ignites or doesn't. It's 100% ignition of the fuel/air mixture, or 0%, no in between. The physics/chemistry says the source of the spark doesn't matter, as long as it arrives at the right time, and is reliable.

"decent blokes", "heroes"???? Did I miss something? lol Nah, most of us are semi-sane, and have some basic social skills, that is all. lol

EDIT: We all have our personal preferences, run whatever plug, oil and filter that makes you feel good. Just don't try to convert anyone else. It's annoying.

Already stated, dyno figures are known to vary considerably due to the many variables involved.
It's up to you to explain how some plugs could produce more power. Flame propagation throughout the combustion chamber at the top of the compression stroke starts with a spark, it either ignites or doesn't. It's 100% ignition of the fuel/air mixture, or 0%, no in between. The physics/chemistry says the source of the spark doesn't matter, as long as it arrives at the right time, and is reliable.

"decent blokes", "heroes"???? Did I miss something? lol Nah, most of us are semi-sane, and have some basic social skills, that is all. lol

EDIT: We all have our personal preferences, run whatever plug, oil and filter that makes you feel good. Just don't try to convert anyone else. It's annoying.

Well I'm not trying to convert anybody, sorry if I came across that way. If anyones going to be converted it will probably be me, I'm here to learn. I just enjoy a spirited debate, preferably WITH some basic social skills, both of which you've given.

I really like that description of 100% ignition or nothing. Makes sence, still not 100% convinced though :)

I cannot explain how some plugs produce more power, or even if they do. I just produced a single dyno result which suggested they might. I haven't even checked if all the plugs had the same gaps, that would probably do it. I guess nobody will ever know based on the logic that anything under 5 kw is considered error/insignificant/.

Thanks anyway, at least you offer some explanation for your opinion.

FYI Hero: mythological or legendary figure, often of divine descent, endowed with great strength or ability.

Some people confuse themselves with the above.

I'm not a hero mate. I'm just trying to say that there is no difference between a brand new reputable branded $5 spark plug and a $30 spark plug. They will both do the same job, the more expensive one will do the same job for longer. Dyno results mean nothing when you are dealing with such a small gain. Dyno results vary a lot and will never be 100% accurate.

You wanted a healthy debate, you got one. If you want to sway my view, then you need to give more evidence.

I'm not a hero mate. I'm just trying to say that there is no difference between a brand new reputable branded $5 spark plug and a $30 spark plug. They will both do the same job, the more expensive one will do the same job for longer. Dyno results mean nothing when you are dealing with such a small gain. Dyno results vary a lot and will never be 100% accurate.

You wanted a healthy debate, you got one. If you want to sway my view, then you need to give more evidence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veqxUwmk1I8

Well here is some more evidence, professionals that make a living out of measuring performance gains... in their words "significant" gains from a spark plug. Consecutive runs, no drastic pressure changes etc.
Don't get me wrong, I don't pretend to understand the science. I just think that perhaps there's something in it. I don't agree that dyno results 'mean nothing' when dealing with a small gain. They mean something, 6 lb torque out of thin air? What changed? The plug. It's just common sense to at least consider it IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veqxUwmk1I8

Well here is some more evidence, professionals that make a living out of measuring performance gains... in their words "significant" gains from a spark plug. Consecutive runs, no drastic pressure changes etc.
Don't get me wrong, I don't pretend to understand the science. I just think that perhaps there's something in it. I don't agree that dyno results 'mean nothing' when dealing with a small gain. They mean something, 6 lb torque out of thin air? What changed? The plug. It's just common sense to at least consider it IMO.

Plugs themselves wont create power, we have been through this already. What might be making the difference is the improved detonation points with certain plugs. The ability for the plug to spark at the exact moment provides optimum combustion in the cylinder thus improving efficiency

Well ok, but that sounds like changing a plug could 'potentially' give you more power. That's all I'm really saying.

Regarding plugs, the quality of the spark will have a significant influence on the burn pattern in the cylinder. The greater the exposure to the spark, the better the burn and hence better performance. As I stated earlier, my wife commented on the difference in pickup without her even knowing I had replaced the plugs. The 'old' plugs were NGK Platinums, and they were only about 5000 km old. They came out of the engine very clean, as did the Iridiums when I took them out the other day. My main concern with the Iridiums is how long before the gap opens up to the point where it starts misfiring or backfiring? From what I could see in doing my research, Iridiums are only good for about 40000 km, whereas the NGK platinums are good for 100000 km.

Bosch had some interesting plugs which I was very tempted to try. They had 4 outer electrodes and were non sdjustable. As one corner wore off due to spark erosion, another would take over, and you had 8 corners to do the job. I used to use Golden Lodge in my Citroen and they were the only plugs I cvould get at the time which would perform for more than a few hundred miles before it started misfiring (mine was the first fuel injected Citroen and it was touchy on plugs and leads. It took many years to sort that one out). The Golden Lodge plugs had the 4 outer electrodes as well. I didn't go for the Bosch version because I had a set of Bosch leads on and one was sh1t. Maybe in a few year's time????

Cant believe this is still going on, if you think spark plugs will get you more power go ahead blow your money.... Ive had normal plugs in my supercharged motor & the more expensive ones, there is absolutely no difference.

You cant possibly rely on dyno as accurate test when you are dealing with such minor power gains, 6lb of torque? Is that measured at the wheels and then converted back to engine value, given this is an approximate conversion there is no way it can be accurate.

Regarding plugs, the quality of the spark will have a significant influence on the burn pattern in the cylinder. The greater the exposure to the spark, the better the burn and hence better performance. As I stated earlier, my wife commented on the difference in pickup without her even knowing I had replaced the plugs. The 'old' plugs were NGK Platinums, and they were only about 5000 km old. They came out of the engine very clean, as did the Iridiums when I took them out the other day. My main concern with the Iridiums is how long before the gap opens up to the point where it starts misfiring or backfiring? From what I could see in doing my research, Iridiums are only good for about 40000 km, whereas the NGK platinums are good for 100000 km.

Bosch had some interesting plugs which I was very tempted to try. They had 4 outer electrodes and were non sdjustable. As one corner wore off due to spark erosion, another would take over, and you had 8 corners to do the job. I used to use Golden Lodge in my Citroen and they were the only plugs I cvould get at the time which would perform for more than a few hundred miles before it started misfiring (mine was the first fuel injected Citroen and it was touchy on plugs and leads. It took many years to sort that one out). The Golden Lodge plugs had the 4 outer electrodes as well. I didn't go for the Bosch version because I had a set of Bosch leads on and one was sh1t. Maybe in a few year's time????

I like the sound of the Bosch plug with 4 electrodes. Sounds good for reliability at least, might be good if you are taking off on a camping trip or something. I agree with you that plugs make a difference, my wife had a civic and whenever i changed the plugs the car would absolutely have more go. Perhaps more noticeable because of the low power of the car, but every single time it was there.

Cant believe this is still going on, if you think spark plugs will get you more power go ahead blow your money.... Ive had normal plugs in my supercharged motor & the more expensive ones, there is absolutely no difference.

You cant possibly rely on dyno as accurate test when you are dealing with such minor power gains, 6lb of torque? Is that measured at the wheels and then converted back to engine value, given this is an approximate conversion there is no way it can be accurate.

I think those guys know how to read a dyno. Why did you add conversions to the conversation? Just to muddy the water maybe? They just take a wheel figure, like most dyno places, and work with it.

This conversation is still going on because people like you keep posting, it's like a discussion no? You have your say, I have mine. Would you rather I just believe you on faith and stand down?

If blowing my money is spending another $12 to upgrade the front bank, then yep, I blew my money.

Mate good for you, might also wonna try more aero dynamic window wipers, let me know how you go...

You convert back dyno result by using approximate drive trains loss factors, i had figures different as much as 4kw at the wheels between dyno runs, guess what i didnt change my spark plugs.

Mate good for you, might also wonna try more aero dynamic window wipers, let me know how you go...

You convert back dyno result by using approximate drive trains loss factors, i had figures different as much as 4kw at the wheels between dyno runs, guess what i didnt change my spark plugs.

You are the only one talking about converting dyno figures, I really don't see the relevance. Like I said, take the wheel figures and work with them. BTW they were pretty consistent with each plug, different between the plug types. That's obviously a bit tricky for you, don't worry about it.

Clearly no clue about dynos, they show anything you want them to, its like K&N will show you dynos of their magic filters.

FFS you are referring to minor power gain figures based on dyno results, are you for real?

I work on the dyno almost daily and all i can say is there is alot of crap being spoken!

Clearly no clue about dynos, they show anything you want them to, its like K&N will show you dynos of their magic filters.

FFS you are referring to minor power gain figures based on dyno results, are you for real?

Listen mate, it's just a technical question as to whether spark plugs can effect power. It's not that I'm groveling over 2kw, I'm just looking into the technical side of things because I find it interesting. You clearly don't. I don't even know why you are responding to this thread if your not interested in the topic?

BTW your 16.023 might have been 15.950 with an extra 6 lb torque? :)

If the TJ im picking up next week had an enigine i would do some back to back tests for you on the dyno! just by how you strap it down will change the power out put

If the TJ im picking up next week had an enigine i would do some back to back tests for you on the dyno! just by how you strap it down will change the power out put

I'm sure it changes around a lot. when i used to get my skyline dynoed it changed every run, but not by that much.
All it needs is for someone to do 6 runs with cheap plugs then 6 with top of the range iridium and compare the results. If there is, on average, more power with iridium it would suggest (not prove) the plug plays a role. Fortunately people have already done this and posted the results online.

Why is the tj missing the engine? What are your plans? Got a spare 3.5 here in SA but don't suppose that helps.

i was going to put my built rb26/30 with 42gtx turbo in it and covert it to rwd but i think i will just build a 6g74 or 75 as i have a full maching shop and dyno at my disposal :) still definatly coverting to rwd but

i was going to put my built rb26/30 with 42gtx turbo in it and covert it to rwd but i think i will just build a 6g74 or 75 as i have a full maching shop and dyno at my disposal :) still definatly coverting to rwd but

Because you are going to spend hundreds of hours and tens of thousands of dollars on a Magna that is worth under 7000 why?

If you want to be sure about spark plugs just always replace them every 30-40k.

Theres no need to spend much money its just my own time and i have every tool and machine you could ever want at my finger tips. And most of all i like to be different! doesnt matter what car you poor money into you will never get it back!

Ok mad i hope you get sick of it and i'll buy it lol. But make sure you use good spark plugs when doing the build.

haha will do :P dont want to be unloading in 3rd

Because you are going to spend hundreds of hours and tens of thousands of dollars on a Magna that is worth under 7000 why?

If you want to be sure about spark plugs just always replace them every 30-40k.

Tens of thousands? It wont cost that much hayden. It can be done done for $5k

Tens of thousands? It wont cost that much hayden. It can be done done for $5k

It would cost me tens of thousands as i don't have the knowledge, tools or experience. I have no idea what he has lol so i can only say what i know.

I heard an r34 skyline rear subframe lines up nicely :p

very close i have been told so i will be using the 33 gtr cradle i have lying round :)

very close i have been told so i will be using the 33 gtr cradle i have lying round :)

No shit! That sounds ambitious as hell. You have twin cam conversion on the rb30 block? They take such a pounding those bottom ends.
Having access to workshop and dyno would have to halve your costs right there.
Did you think about just starting with a awd shell if your using 6g? Give you better launch. I heard many turbo magnas just spin.

This is my new project... bought it 10 mins ago.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Mitsubishi-Magna-2003-TJ-Executive-SII-3-5L-Auto-LOW-KM-Minor-Damage-Drives-NR-/300748248903?pt=AU_Cars&hash=item4605fe1747#ht_542wt_1158

Not sure what I'm gonna do with it. Any ideas? Not too sure about the 4sp tippy, seems a bit pointless.

Turbo magnas only spin as much as any other car with the same power lol.

Turbo magnas only spin as much as any other car with the same power lol.

Not really true. Modern design and technology is putting an end to that with more sophisticated front end set ups. Look at the Focus RS500. They are putting down around 240kw atfw and cope admirably even under full throttle launches. Magnas are very basic setup as they are old by design

That still had near to no relation Dave as he said turbo magnas just spin and compared to 99% of cars that is untrue. I didn't say none grip or have more traction lolol.

That still had near to no relation Dave as he said turbo magnas just spin and compared to 99% of cars that is untrue. I didn't say none grip or have more traction lolol.

Ok sweetie

Turbo magnas only spin as much as any other car with the same power lol.

I was referring to him tossing up between converting to rear wheel drive and leaving as front wheel drive. Maybe I read it wrong. That's why I was suggesting awd option.
A rwd would launch better than a fwd and an awd better than rwd. That's all I was getting at. I'm sure most fwd's of that era are similar.

Edit: Also it sounded like he was going for crazy power and isn't it the fwd thing that holds back magnas running 11's and stuff? It was actually a compliment to magnas... I was thinking of 400hp compared to 200hp out of other fwd as most are around 2 litre with less torque.

Yeah, definitely. The only real way to get a great drag time in a magna when power is available is to adjust throttle input very well or have adjustable boost levels between gears. Egos car should run an 11 if he gets it sorted. Something like 350nm in first, 600Nm in second and whatever the car tops at in third, with a good setup it should be able to grip all gears

Sounds pretty exciting. You mean 11 flat or in the 11's? Are the rallyart awd? I wonder if the magna awd drivetrain would take that sort of power. Bit heavier but probably worth it.

No. Ralliart's are a FWD.

Ahh ok. Surprising they didn't make an awd performance version. Worked with the lancer.

I will definatly be going rwd as unless i use gtr running gear magna awd drivetrain just wont stand up to the power, it i decide to use the rb at a later date i want to be sure i can put all the 750hp to the ground reliably. im really keen to see what sort of power i can get from a 6g on e85 hope to come close to 650hp+. some othe fun news my engineer has given me approval for the setup :)
looking forward to getting started and i will make a build thread.

Ahh ok. Surprising they didn't make an awd performance version. Worked with the lancer.

Mitsubishi Australia were in no position to spend hundreds of millions designing an awd ralliart and a FI engine even if the ralliart was going into large production.. Let alone them making only 500. The fwd drivetrain is better... Can still handle good power, just not stupid power.

I will definatly be going rwd as unless i use gtr running gear magna awd drivetrain just wont stand up to the power, it i decide to use the rb at a later date i want to be sure i can put all the 750hp to the ground reliably. im really keen to see what sort of power i can get from a 6g on e85 hope to come close to 650hp+. some othe fun news my engineer has given me approval for the setup :)
looking forward to getting started and i will make a build thread.

Most of the AWD drivetrain excl the engine is Evo 6 and 7 parts. It can take a fair bit of punishment. The only downer is the auto transmission. Surprisingly, no one has yet converted one to manual.

Check out the US sites that deal with the 6G series as there is a wealth of tuning info there. The Eclipse springs to mind. Good luck with the build, it sounds exciting.

Yea didn't realise the awd were all autos. Makes it a bit harder. But being evo parts sounds interesting... would surely take a thrashing.

Hayden I was more referring to Mitsubishi in general make an awd turbo rocket. With the 6g75/78 it would give GTR's WRX's and the like a run for their money.
Woulda been good to see Mitsubishi represented in the genuine performance category. Put it in the tf body so it's not too heavy. Knew I should have been an engineer.

A manual conversion to the awd would be easy if they use evo running gear just have to cut the front 50mm off the auto and the front 50mm of the evo box and tig the auto front 50mm to the evo box and you have a manual make up some new selector cables a few wires flash the ecu to remove the auto functions and maby some new cv shafts probably have it in there in 2 days. only issue is evo gearboxes are very weak above 250kw went through 3 in a cyborg. I would love awd as im building this car to try and beat my old boses car NITTO an r34 gtr with 750awhp at powercruise next year :P just think it will be so much sweeter doing it in a magna haha.

A manual conversion to the awd would be easy if they use evo running gear just have to cut the front 50mm off the auto and the front 50mm of the evo box and tig the auto front 50mm to the evo box and you have a manual make up some new selector cables a few wires flash the ecu to remove the auto functions and maby some new cv shafts probably have it in there in 2 days. only issue is evo gearboxes are very weak above 250kw went through 3 in a cyborg. I would love awd as im building this car to try and beat my old boses car NITTO an r34 gtr with 750awhp at powercruise next year :P just think it will be so much sweeter doing it in a magna haha.

There have been some mad builds on here over the past few years. EGO has a turbo 3.0 which maxxed out at 370kw on the dyno i believe, still FWD. then there is TZABOY who had a Ralliart with custom Kenne Bell supercharger and fully rebuilt motor, i think that was good for 300kw. You are going the next step up though, so very keen to see where you take it!

Maybe you should try and do a twin engine wagon!

I found a few awsome builds on here Egos is probably the best but there are a few things on that i would change and i believe it would make an easy 450kw but going above 21psi on just pump fuel is silly as you have to pull shit loads of timing out to keep it from detting. I think twin external, 044s upgrade fuel lines, id2000cc injectors and e85 and it will come alive like you wouldnt believe :) This is the fuel system i will be running but with 2 feed lines and 4 044 pumps and i will make my own fuel rails so i can run twin entry with 1 return on each bank. having lots of fun planing this also being laughed at alot by the guys i used to work with which just makes me what to acomplish this even more!

A manual conversion to the awd would be easy if they use evo running gear just have to cut the front 50mm off the auto and the front 50mm of the evo box and tig the auto front 50mm to the evo box and you have a manual make up some new selector cables a few wires flash the ecu to remove the auto functions and maby some new cv shafts probably have it in there in 2 days. only issue is evo gearboxes are very weak above 250kw went through 3 in a cyborg. I would love awd as im building this car to try and beat my old boses car NITTO an r34 gtr with 750awhp at powercruise next year :P just think it will be so much sweeter doing it in a magna haha.

I love how simple you make a Manual conversion in the AWD, if it was that simple would have been done by now, is not quite or for that matter anywhere near what you say. I should have this one completed in about 2 weeks just waiting on a couple of bits to arrive and will be done. The jig alone has taken many hours to make sure it is 100% spot on

Dont need to flash ECU or get longer shifter cables, aside from the box the rest of the manual converision is simply using a normal manual magna

ALso, good luck with the auto bell housing, not sure where you will mount the starter as the stater has different specs in relation to mounting position than to that of a Manual :)

Good to see what you are attempting to build though, looks interesting however lets please get back on topic now, if there is no more to be said about spark plugs we can then close off this thread