Question for the AWD owners about overtaking.

When going to overtake at high speed (aprox 100 kms) when I put my foot down the auto will kick down what feels like a couple of gears (so to 3rd?) causing the RPM to then rapidly increase to near redline (6000 rpm). The actual speed pickup is slow and not very satisfactory. The engine RPM is screaming at me for little benefit and I have to back-off so it will upshift. Is this typical? The car accelerates fine at lower speeds.

I know these arent performance cars, but I hate this behavior, I'd rather it kicked down 1 gear only, to avoid all this fuss and rev noise. So could it be driver error, am I just being too heavy footed?

(Once again, my KH experience is completely different. Sometimes it won't kick down at all, which can be annoying, but when it does it never redlines like that and is quite smooth and quick to overtake.)

I'd say use tippy to either hold 5th or select 4th. Best solution though is to fit a 6G75 motor. I find the 3.8 much better at overtaking in 5th than the 3.5 overtaking in 3rd or 4th! Not to mention if it shifts back.

Most auto boxes have that problem, kicking down too far in the gears and revving the pants off the engine without speeding up.

As above, plant the foot and pull back one gear in tippy mode.

6,000 rpm at 100 kph - does that sound like second or third gear for the 5 speed? What are the speeds at 6,000 rpm through the gears on the 4 and 5 speed boxes anyway?

I've noticed the tippy gearbox will downshift by itself as you slow down, but you have to upshift manually as you speed up. Does the tippy function lock out the kickdown function when you plant it at speed?

Too avoid this behavour on an open road, I normally take a "run up" so that I reach overtaking speed before I approach the vehicle, and then pass without having to change down. But what you described is normal, that's why I would use the tippy if I needed to.

6000rpm is way past usable torque hence not much acceleration. You have an AWD which has the 5sp tippy. Just shift across and down once which will be in 4th and around the 4000rpm range which is where the peak torque is at. Mind you, with the 380 cams, I noticed that it can happily accelerate up incline in fifth where before I had to change down a gear.

Thanks guys, this is just driver error then. I'll try out the tiptronic - havent really played much with that since getting the car. Will be a bit of an adjustment for me after all these years!


Does the tippy function lock out the kickdown function when you plant it at speed?
Hmm, i sure hope so. I'll try this over the weekend.

Thanks guys, this is just driver error then. I'll try out the tiptronic - havent really played much with that since getting the car. Will be a bit of an adjustment for me after all these years!


Hmm, i sure hope so. I'll try this over the weekend.

To answer MadMax's question, yes. I always drive in tippy mode and the few times when I forgot to downchange, it did not kick down.

To answer MadMax's question, yes. I always drive in tippy mode and the few times when I forgot to downchange, it did not kick down.

Good to know. Fresh to the tippy bit myself, haven't had much of a chance to play with it.

A tippy will hold the gear you are in, unless you slow below the allowed speed in the ECU....

When going to overtake at high speed (aprox 100 kms) when I put my foot down the auto will kick down what feels like a couple of gears (so to 3rd?) causing the RPM to then rapidly increase to near redline (6000 rpm). The actual speed pickup is slow and not very satisfactory. The engine RPM is screaming at me for little benefit and I have to back-off so it will upshift. Is this typical? The car accelerates fine at lower speeds.

I know these arent performance cars, but I hate this behavior, I'd rather it kicked down 1 gear only, to avoid all this fuss and rev noise. So could it be driver error, am I just being too heavy footed?
I know exactly what you mean. As others have said, the tippy downshift gives the best control. At 100kmh, my recollection is that a shift down from 5th to 4th raises revs to around 3000, which is not quite enough for maximum acceleration (needs to be over 3500rpm with a stock engine in my experience). Downshifting to 3rd gets you to a bit over 4000rpm which is close to peak torque.

This is mostly a problem with the shift maps, both up and down, in the ECU. The L/W series AWDs have the most aggressive 5th gear downshift maps of them all (even more aggressive than the Ralliart autos) but the downshifts below that are the same as the TJ AWDs (which are somewhat more aggressive than the FWD 5 speeds and similar to the Ralliarts). However the other problem I found with the stock shift maps is that the WOT upshifts are set for around 5800rpm, which is too far above the top of the power band for the stock cams (though fine with better cams).

The TPS based shift maps are modifiable now (via ECU reflash), however it does take some work to set up a satisfactory shift mapping to cover most situations. tippy still works better though... more grunt (cams, extractors, tune, etc) helps too... :ninja:


(Once again, my KH experience is completely different. Sometimes it won't kick down at all, which can be annoying, but when it does it never redlines like that and is quite smooth and quick to overtake.)
The stock 4 speed shift maps that I've seen won't downshift from 3rd to 2nd until very slow speeds (30-40kmh).

WytWun; that is very useful info, thank you. Would you help me to understand what you meant with this:

However the other problem I found with the stock shift maps is that the WOT upshifts are set for around 5800rpm

Does that mean that at WOT (wide open throttle?) the car will hold gear (possibly 3rd) until 5800rpm?

WytWun; that is very useful info, thank you. Would you help me to understand what you meant with this:


Does that mean that at WOT (wide open throttle?) the car will hold gear (possibly 3rd) until 5800rpm?

That's exactly what it means. Pretty useless, really. 5,000 rpm would be enough.

That's exactly what it means. Pretty useless, really. 5,000 rpm would be enough.

Not really. I get quickest times in my car shifting at 6500

WytWun; that is very useful info, thank you. Would you help me to understand what you meant with this:


Does that mean that at WOT (wide open throttle?) the car will hold gear (possibly 3rd) until 5800rpm?
Yes, although to be precise it is speed based rather than a specific rpm - i.e. the shift happens at a speed that equates to 5800rpm in that gear.

5,000 rpm would be enough.
Not necessarily. This is an exercise in power/torque band optimisation.

Shiifting from 4th to 5th at 5000rpm will drop the revs to about 3300rpm which is way below peak torque, leading to the engine bogging down.

5400rpm would be a minimum in my opinion, but 5600 rpm would be a better compromise.

For comparison the FWD 5 speeds are set to upshift around 5500-5600rpm and the Ralliarts at around 6000-6100rpm.

In theory, 5800rpm should work well in the AWD, dropping the revs almost on top of peak torque (~4000rpm), but I found that 5800rpm was just a bit too far. Other engines may of course behave differently, as mine now does with better cams (and I've increased the WOT shifts closer to the Ralliart points to take advantage of that).

Not really. I get quickest times in my car shifting at 6500


If you read the original post, the OP's car is an auto and it bogs down at 6,000 rpm in third. He is trying to avoid staying out of the upper rev range.
He can do that by using tippy and get the best acceleration for the conditions - engine age, air temperature etc all have a bearing on acceleration and when the best time to shift.

Max, even though hayden vrx's car isn't remotely similar to an AWD, you have to bear in mind that he's an authourity on every subject! :roll:... apparently!

Well Thankyou. What im saying is its not always what you feel. 3500 in 3rd feels alot faster then 5500 in second but that's all because of torque giving that feeling. I guarantee second at 5500 is still accelerating quicker due to the ratio.

Max, even though hayden vrx's car isn't remotely similar to an AWD, you have to bear in mind that he's an authourity on every subject! :roll:... apparently!

Yep, me too, I'm a keyboard warrior and eggspurt on everything, but Mal usually sorts me out. lol


Well Thankyou. What im saying is its not always what you feel. 3500 in 3rd feels alot faster then 5500 in second but that's all because of torque giving that feeling. I guarantee second at 5500 is still accelerating quicker due to the ratio.

Probably right there.
What we really need here is a piece of software where you can input engine power/torque characteristics, gear ratios etc. and plot a graph of engine speed versus acceleration. Seat of the pants type of acceleration is not very accurate.

If peak power is being made beyond 5500rpm then acceleration will still occur.

Acceleration at high speed in an AWD wont be spectacular, they barely make 100kw at the wheels and weigh 1600kg...

Yes, although to be precise it is speed based rather than a specific rpm - i.e. the shift happens at a speed that equates to 5800rpm in that gear.

Bingo! That's what's happening then. Man, so much noise for so little result.
Basically the engine roars and I instinctively back the foot off so I don't blow it up.

Guys, those without AWD's can stop commenting on an AWD issue here please, Hayden, you have NFI what you are on about the AWD with the Auto will work very differently to your car and add to this your car is modded, the car in this thread is not so please everyone unless you are contributing something helpful about the AWD and not every other car out there please keep out of this conversation as it is now just 3 pages of posts with about 25% of them being helpful

No i do have a fair idea, and i was merely putting points forward that contributed to the conversation, and will continue doing so where i think i can bring usefull information and ideas.

If peak power is being made beyond 5500rpm then acceleration will still occur.

Acceleration at high speed in an AWD wont be spectacular, they barely make 100kw at the wheels and weigh 1600kg...

AWD magna has quite sufficient over taking performance actually, far superior to the all-too-common auto FWD magnas. Their gearing helps this. Not to mention their grip and road holding is worlds ahead of any FWD.

Overtaking from 100+ is best done around 4000rpm from my experience.

Their questionable slugginess is not even a point of discussion once you fit a 6G75 lol

Please tell me how their 'road holding' ability is better then any fwd lol

Please tell me how their 'road holding' ability is better then any fwd lol

i too am interested as to how the awd makes it hold the road better. now quite sure it does to be honest. (in an overtaking situation anyway)
the awd WILL be slower than a fwd on any straight line even. a manual will be quicker off the line too i would bet.

AWD magna has quite sufficient over taking performance actually, far superior to the all-too-common auto FWD magnas. Their gearing helps this. Not to mention their grip and road holding is worlds ahead of any FWD.

Overtaking from 100+ is best done around 4000rpm from my experience.

Their questionable slugginess is not even a point of discussion once you fit a 6G75 lol

I cannot even fathom how you arrived at that logic lol

Please tell me how their 'road holding' ability is better then any fwd lol

If you are just going to keep on making pointless posts then please stop now as you will only be the one to end up with egg on your face, you come across like a know it all Hayden, leave these threads alone please

FYI awd do hold the road better in std form than a std fwd, remember again we are talking std cars

No i do have a fair idea, and i was merely putting points forward that contributed to the conversation, and will continue doing so where i think i can bring usefull information and ideas.

Sorry you have failed to make a single valid point in this thread, you drive a modded fwd, op drives stock wad, you compare your car to his, really????

Stay out of it, you don't own an awd, you clearly don't have the knowledge on how it all works so leave it upto awd owners to assist

I am allowed to make my point which you missed, I think a magna will accellerate harder from 5500-6000 in second rather the equivelent speed in 3rd due to the gear ratio and i believe this will be the same for All models, the drop off in power and torque from the 6g74 isn't as agressive as it feels, there is no way to know it without really doing timed runs with a computer. But from researching drag times with magnas the best times seem to be the ones where the revs in second gear are held the longest, no matter what the drivetrain.

If you are just going to keep on making pointless posts then please stop now as you will only be the one to end up with egg on your face, you come across like a know it all Hayden, leave these threads alone please

FYI awd do hold the road better in std form than a std fwd, remember again we are talking std cars

that is fair enough, however, i cannot se there being any difference apart from marginally less acceleration in general overtaking situations.

one awesome thing about the boxes fitted to these cars is that they do hold the selected gear, not like poxxy aurion 6 speeds where you can select 5th, and it will drop back to second, and if its wet, that is not a good thing, because t/c cuts in and you may as well get out and walk.

Well I tried some experiments on the weekend and found that planting the foot does result in downshift to 3rd from 5th at around 100kmh but the RPM doesn't hit 6000, it tends to be around the 3500 to 4500 mark depending on speed (just based on looking at the taco). I tried the tippy and found that you do need to drop to 3rd to get sufficient pace so the auto is doing the right thing. 4th was ok, but 3rd gives a nice boost.

There must be some other scenario where I was hitting that 6000 mark, I'll have to wait until it happens again and take note of the speed. I wish there was an indicator so we could see what gear the auto is in at any given moment.

The whole relationship between RPM and speed is interesting to me. For every 5km increase in speed after 100 there seems to be a linear increase in RPM of 100.
I notice at 100 kmh the RPM sits squarely on 2100, however if I speed up a little and then let it come back to 100 the RPM seems to stick at 2150 or 2200 before dropping suddenly back to 2100 after a few seconds. I guess the RPM may be affected by the ECU and not only speed.


AWD magna has quite sufficient over taking performance actually, far superior to the all-too-common auto FWD magnas. Their gearing helps this. Not to mention their grip and road holding is worlds ahead of any FWD.


My experience with the FWD KH is that it's slow to overtake because it either wouldn't kick down at the right moment or when it did the increase in speed was gradual until sufficient RPM was reached. But the car feels "quicker" which I put down to it being 200kgs lighter. I know if I have 2 adults sitting in the back it feels slower so I guess the AWD is like having 2 passengers in it all the time. There's about a 2 liter difference in economy too.

As for road holding, this is another topic. From what I understand the AWD improves traction, so I believe that means improved control. Better control will also mean better handling. But I'd only expect that to be applicable under acceleration? Otherwise it wouldn't make any difference from a FWD. although, most of the time when we're driving the car is accelerating, even when "coasting" because we have to overcome friction.

My experience is that there is a world of difference in handling between my FWD and the AWD. Night and day difference. If I'd only known I would have traded the KH years ago.

This is getting a bit OT now. Might need a new thread. An AWD wont handle any better than a FWD, in fact it handles worse due to the extra weight. All things being equal, a FWD magna will always handle better than an AWD. Where AWD becomes useful is the increase in available traction where needed. Driving/being driven in an AWD i found that it would still understeer dramatically but rather than backing off the power as you would in a FWD, more power could also be used in the AWD to bring the tail around. That was always fun.

There must be some other scenario where I was hitting that 6000 mark

The whole relationship between RPM and speed is interesting to me. For every 5km increase in speed after 100 there seems to be a linear increase in RPM of 100.
I notice at 100 kmh the RPM sits squarely on 2100, however if I speed up a little and then let it come back to 100 the RPM seems to stick at 2150 or 2200 before dropping suddenly back to 2100 after a few seconds. I guess the RPM may be affected by the ECU and not only speed.


Dropping down to second gear perhaps?

That drop of 100 rpm is the torque converter locking up, perhaps?

("Perhaps" added as I don't own an AWD . . . . )

An AWD wont handle any better than a FWD, in fact it handles worse due to the extra weight..

My mistake, I thought that the extra traction gives more control and therefore leads to better handling. There may be a technical definition of "handling" that I'm unaware of.

As an example; in the wet my AWD will not lose traction (never seen it yet) but my FWD will (and does). To me this is better "handling" by the AWD in this specific scenario. Maybe the AWD is better in some handling aspects but worse in others?
I have noticed the under steer, but it never feels too uncomfortable.

Dropping down to second gear perhaps?

You may be right. maybe I was traveling at something less than 100kmh and it downshifted to 2nd.
I'll take careful note of the speed the next time it happens.

My mistake, I thought that the extra traction gives more control and therefore leads to better handling. There may be a technical definition of "handling" that I'm unaware of.

As an example; in the wet my AWD will not lose traction (never seen it yet) but my FWD will (and does). To me this is better "handling" by the AWD in this specific scenario. Maybe the AWD is better in some handling aspects but worse in others?
I have noticed the under steer, but it never feels too uncomfortable.

Handling and grip are two different things. High grip does not mean good handling within good reason

Well I tried some experiments on the weekend and found that planting the foot does result in downshift to 3rd from 5th at around 100kmh but the RPM doesn't hit 6000, it tends to be around the 3500 to 4500 mark depending on speed (just based on looking at the taco). I tried the tippy and found that you do need to drop to 3rd to get sufficient pace so the auto is doing the right thing. 4th was ok, but 3rd gives a nice boost.

There must be some other scenario where I was hitting that 6000 mark, I'll have to wait until it happens again and take note of the speed. I wish there was an indicator so we could see what gear the auto is in at any given moment.
I went back and looked at the shift maps in a 2004 AWD ROM and the 4->3 and 3->2 WOT shifts are much more aggressive than I remembered. If you had been doing a bit below 100kmh (90-95kmh?) when you floored it, I could well believe it has dropped back to 2nd and jumped to near 6000rpm.

In comparison, the TJ AWD won't WOT downshift to 2nd unless its doing less than 60-65kmh...

All the upshift maps are indentical to the TJ AWD.


The whole relationship between RPM and speed is interesting to me. For every 5km increase in speed after 100 there seems to be a linear increase in RPM of 100.
I notice at 100 kmh the RPM sits squarely on 2100, however if I speed up a little and then let it come back to 100 the RPM seems to stick at 2150 or 2200 before dropping suddenly back to 2100 after a few seconds. I guess the RPM may be affected by the ECU and not only speed.
As MadMax suggests, this effect is the lockup clutch in the torque converter. When you back off and the output from the engine drops enough, it is unlocked so that you coast, and then when the engine output rises again it locks up. When stock, I found that it was almost undetectable except by looking at the tacho...

This thread is going all over the place from what the OP originally asked. Based off my own car, if you're tapping on 6k rpm when you plant it you must be sitting somewhere in the mid 90's, it's dropping into 2nd. From memory, anything from about 97km/h up it'll only drop back into 3rd which in the cars stock form will put you in the ideal zone on the power band for overtaking. That being said, these cars suffer significantly from their drivetrain loss at higher speeds, so acceleration from 100km/h up is never going to be all that flash.

Best approach is to "run up" as mentioned, get most of your overtaking speed on before you pull out, it's better for your fuel economy, easier on the car, and safer in the sense you've better planned the entire manoeuvre.

That said, we cannot recommend or condone any of this behaviour, and any road safety campaigns would have you believe the safest way is to not accelerate at all, simply overtake at the posted speed limit, both legal and "safe". If that tickles your fancy.

This thread is going all over the place from what the OP originally asked. Based off my own car, if you're tapping on 6k rpm when you plant it you must be sitting somewhere in the mid 90's, it's dropping into 2nd.

That's probably my fault, asking lots of silly questions, but it's all useful stuff. My original question has been comprehensively answered, with many thanks to all posters, especially WytWuns informative posts.

Armed with this info I can now modify my driving habits, i.e. avoid WOT in the 90's and also learn to use the tippy for overtaking when out on the open roads. Clearly I've become accustomed to using WOT in the KH which usually needs it at that speed range.

That said, we cannot recommend or condone any of this behaviour, and any road safety campaigns would have you believe the safest way is to not accelerate at all, simply overtake at the posted speed limit, both legal and "safe". If that tickles your fancy.

Are you serious? WTF.

Are you serious? WTF.

Lugo is simply saying that if you need to break the speed limit to overtake, don't overtake. Simple.

It does seem that the nanny state is finally having its way.

Lets all bunch up in bumper to bumper traffic and never overtake, ever lol

If you are sitting behind someone doing 95 in a 100 zone, you have 2 choices. Kick it up to 120 and pass, or stay behind him at 95.

If you get lasered by Mr Camera Operator while doing 120 overtaking you get a ticket. Your choice.

If you are sitting behind someone doing 95 in a 100 zone, you have 2 choices. Kick it up to 120 and pass, or stay behind him at 95.

If you get lasered by Mr Camera Operator while doing 120 overtaking you get a ticket. Your choice.

I had this exact situation once on the way to Cape Jervis. Was approaching the last hill climb on Flinders St in my old KS Xi. Been following a Patrol towing a caravan for some time and decided to overtake on the straight strech just before the hill climb. The idiotic Patrol driver who was doing 80-85kph in 100 zone the whole way (couldn't overtake due to numerous amount of oncoming traffic), decided to speed up for the climb. I was already parallel with the patrol and gunned further to 120kph to overtake and get back to the right side of the road and slowed to 100 when I noticed a police office with a laser gun at the top of the hill. He followed me with his gaze as I waved at him. He did not actually pull me over. I guess he knew that the patrol driver sped up and I had to get to 120 to complete the overtaking manouvre. Anyhow, I was at the deli getting some bait when the same cop pulls up outside the deli. My friends said that I am in trouble. However, he did not approach me or even look in my direction.

Edit: just realised this is a NO SPAM section

It does seem that the nanny state is finally having its way.

Lets all bunch up in bumper to bumper traffic and never overtake, ever lol

It seems a lot of drivers don't know how, or are too scared, to pass these days.
Sorry if this is considered spam, but the OP was to do with passing quickly (and thus safely without spending too long on the other side of the road).

Just back on topic for a moment, and I did some tests in heavy traffic on the fwy. What I mean is that I observed results in different scenarios. So the auto shifts down pretty quickly if im in a very slow lane and want to cut into the next lane at lower speeds.
At higher speeds then it can shift down to second from 5th or 4th at certain speeds.

The downshifts are "aggressive" meaning it appears to favor high RPM to speed ratio resulting in a fairly jerky and noisy environment, but I will say it gets results. I notice i can behave more assertively in this type of traffic than i can in the KH. The KH is not so quick on downshift and pickup is slower. I think they must have configured it this way due to the extra weight, it needs the extra oomph, and of course with having the extra gear they could do it.

Hmm, I would expect that there must be more wear and tear on components due to these RPM spurts compared with my KH.

I think I'm really going to have to adjust my driving to a more relaxed style to avoid these irregular bursts of power. I think the KH is far more tolerant of heavy foot work and I probably got used to it.

Just back on topic for a moment, and I did some tests in heavy traffic on the fwy. What I mean is that I observed results in different scenarios. So the auto shifts down pretty quickly if im in a very slow lane and want to cut into the next lane at lower speeds.
At higher speeds then it can shift down to second from 5th or 4th at certain speeds.

The downshifts are "aggressive" meaning it appears to favor high RPM to speed ratio resulting in a fairly jerky and noisy environment, but I will say it gets results. I notice i can behave more assertively in this type of traffic than i can in the KH. The KH is not so quick on downshift and pickup is slower. I think they must have configured it this way due to the extra weight, it needs the extra oomph, and of course with having the extra gear they could do it.

Hmm, I would expect that there must be more wear and tear on components due to these RPM spurts compared with my KH.

I think I'm really going to have to adjust my driving to a more relaxed style to avoid these irregular bursts of power. I think the KH is far more tolerant of heavy foot work and I probably got used to it.

It'll be fine mate. I know of a certain AWD that was thrashed hard everyday of its life and it didnt do any harm. Certainly nothing wrong with some hard acceleration to clear out the cobwebs. I take the fiancees getz for a blat occassionally and usually see a trail of soot/smoke from the first hard acceleration and after that - nothing