I drove my KH to work today, while the AWD is still at the repairers, and wow what a difference in the experience. "chalk and cheese" doesnt even begin to cover it. The KH is near silent and smooth as silk. Taking off is smooth abd ditto for pulling up. This is the Verada experience i remember and loved so much.

The AWD, in contrast, is jerky on take off and when pulling up and the gear changes are harsh.
Well, now im on a mission to do something about it. I accept it will never be as quiet because its a different car with the additional drivetrain, TC, diff, etc, but surely i can do something about the jerkiness of it.

So please post any suggestions you have. I'll try to explain "jerkiness": The car seems to take off very quickly, and its difficult to take off smoothly as it kinda lurches forward. I dont mean dangerously, but enough so you feel the sudden lurch forward, which is uncomfortable. You can take off slowly by being very careful with the pedal. When pulling up it lurches into first. Gear changes are rough with harsh gear changes. By harsh i dont mean noise, i mean a minor thump feeling when changing into the next gear. I dk how to explain better, but just overall jerky experience.

So, the car is fully serviced, ATF fully flushed, engine oil done, timing belt, drive belts, wheel balance, front and rear roll stoppers replaced, lower front control arm bushes replaced, TC and diff oils replaced. All oils are correct type (see my other thread). The car has 40,000kms on it. No error codes. Tried the learning procedure already. TPS has been re-adjusted.

I'm thinking engine mounts (especially drivers) but what about TPS and other sensors? Which sensors could possibly contribute to this if they were faulty? While the car is practically new from the mileage perspective, its still old timewise and i dk what driving history. i want to start looking at all the typical possibilities, and not exclude possibilities because of low k's. Maybe some sensor is on the way out, or not working perfectly, or had a manufactering fault to start with.

Now im comparing this to my KH and i know they're different cars, but i want to try a few things. I want to stress that depending on who drives it and what they're coming from you would get different opinions. Im sure many would say "no problem, normal" etc, but im looking to fine tune it as much as possible. Something isnt quite right somewhere and i will try a few things by process of elimination.

I would be surprised if the engine mounts are had it, especially considering the mileage etc. Have you tried the transmission relearn procedure?

Please with all these posts about how bad the AWD is if you dont like it, sell it and buy a FWD KW or another KH

I know both of your cars, both are immaculate BUT and AWD will never be as smooth as a FWD< they have more drive line, more weight, more un sprung weight and are in generally a totally different car from not only the drive system but even in the floor pan. All these things make differences.

As I said, your car is immaculate and most people would be amazed at how clean and good condition it is, you cannot compare these cars to each other, yes they both have mitsu badges but that is about where it ends. The L and W even have differences in the construction to that of a H series even when you compare the FWD of both models.

hi Mal, dont get me wrong, i love the AWD, the confidence it gives in the wet is awesome, just want to have a go at improving this jerkiness in it if possible. May not be possible, but wont know unless i try.
After reading some stuff im going to swap the drivers side engine mount first. Probably should have done it ages ago.

I agree the Veradas are very smooth to drive and feel like a refined car. I've driven a friend's KH Verada a number of times and notice it's a fair bit different to my TW AWD. KH is slightly smoother and more relaxed... if you like being a grandpa. But start driving it in the wet or spiritedly (like I do sometimes), you'll wish you were in the AWD any day! Think of the AWD as a family rally car and the Verada as a grandpa car for sensitive people - they're almost a different league completely.

AWD > FWD

-KH is slightly smoother and more relaxed... if you like being a grandpa. But start driving it in the wet or spiritedly (like I do sometimes), you'll wish you were in the AWD any day!
lol grandpa! I know what u nean, but i wouldnt say that! Yeah, KH is refined, but i think my AWD could be a little better than it is.

See if you can find another AWD to take for a test drive (http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/results.aspx?N=1246+1247+1252+1282+4294964597+4294 964374+903+1216+4294696630&vlist=a&vertical=Car&silo=Stock&eapi=2). It may be that your transmission has a fault. A comparison with another AWD will give you a better feeling for that.

Would maybe cleaning your throttlebody or lubricating your accellerator cable smooth things out a tad?, i had that problem in a corolla i owned, the throttle plate was sticking and it would leap forward when taking off, my AWD TL is smooth as, i owned a TF sports and that wasnt as smooth as this

I agree with macropod, possibly drive another member's AWD and compare, that will let you know if it's going to be an easy thing to improve or not.

Comparing with another AWD is a good idea, would help to confirm the problem or otherwise.
Cleaning the throttle body also sounds like a good suggestion, thanks.
So far i'm thinking engine mount, TPS or that.

I first bought a MY02 TJ executive sedan with 4 speed auto 3.5Ltr. Absolutely loved it!! Smooth, grunty, heaps of off line acceleration & frugal for a large v6 sedan. From then on I had my eye on getting an AWD Verada, which I did in '06 (bought a MY03 KJ). My first impression was that the transmission didn't shift as smooth as the executive, being jerkier. I also noticed that the drive line wasn't as refined as the FWD TJ exec either nor did it accelerate as well & I was aware that the AWD's are thirstier :-S. Sort of almost makes one wonder why bother hey?? Except for the fact that after an exhaust & suspension upgrade & a good tune, there is no comparison for fun or surefootedness round the corners or in the wet. Add to the fact that an AWD is rarer and draws alot of oohs & ahhs from people not expecting an AWD Magna.

It will never be as refined as the FWD Magna/ veradas or v6 Camrys but I don't care as I bought this thing to enjoy the AWD magna experience and have no regrets. Besides, In isolation, the NVH is perfectly fine when not compared with the FWD's anyway.

The only elementary thing, is an aftermarket tranny cooler. Apart from that you would have to take it to a Mits specialist who would know which components in the AWD train cause the elavated NVH and perhaps re-engineer/ balance or blueprint those components? It would be time consuming and costly but with a knowledgeable automotive engineer, entirely possible.

...and on that note we conclude you all should have bought Ralliarts. I'd love to drive an awd magna to see the difference, i honestly don't think a magna could feel any better through corners then a well set up fwd though, i Lurrrrveee it.

The jerking into 1st when you stop and rough gear changes are generally an issue with the learning procedure of the transmission. I've had this on a few occasions after a reset when I haven't had the time to follow the procedure. Reset the battery and follow the steps below, should help resolve that. I'm assuming you have the trans serviced regularly, but that wouldn't be a bad idea if you haven't had it done in a while.

The feeling on take off is just a characteristic of the AWD platform. Every AWD Magna I've driven behaves the same unless you feather it off the line. It's a technique you get used to. Failing that put it in 2nd before you take off every time you stop, you do lose a little of the engines enthusiasm on take off if you do that though :P

http://www.pakwheels.com/forums/attachments/members-member-rides/1081277d1353476281-3-5-v6-thriller-mitsubishi-magna-salarzae-mitsunewshift.jpg

Yah, did the learning procedure and ATF a while back.

I'm still leaning towards the engine mount. I notice the car kinda rocks back and forth (nose to tail) if i pull up sharply, like a wave motion. I replaced the roll stoppers a while back and one was sagging a little, so maybe the mount is too soft.

...and on that note we conclude you all should have bought Ralliarts. I'd love to drive an awd magna to see the difference, i honestly don't think a magna could feel any better through corners then a well set up fwd though, i Lurrrrveee it.

Few if anyone have their magnas set up with the suspension & wheels anything like yours Hayden ;-) so it would be difficult to compare as it isn't apples with apples.

All I know that when comparing stock with stock, my AWD could punch through corners way harder than my FWD exec. You could carry greater speed into corners and as long as you get the point in trajectory correct (which was pretty easy), take sweeping corners at full throttle with no slip or understeer. Something the stock TJ could never do!! That was despite the fact the verada was riding on OEM nan & pop spec softer than marshmallows springs at the time.

Yah, did the learning procedure and ATF a while back.

I'm still leaning towards the engine mount. I notice the car kinda rocks back and forth (nose to tail) if i pull up sharply, like a wave motion. I replaced the roll stoppers a while back and one was sagging a little, so maybe the mount is too soft.
How long ago is a while back? It costs you nothing to do it again now and see if there's a difference. Are you sure the rocking sensation on braking you're talking about isn't just your rotors needing machining? Assuming it's doing it as you stop. If it's doing it after the car has seized moving, that's probably the suspension. Never known an engine mount to cause rocking when stopping.

How long ago is a while back? It costs you nothing to do it again now and see if there's a difference. Are you sure the rocking sensation on braking you're talking about isn't just your rotors needing machining? Assuming it's doing it as you stop. If it's doing it after the car has seized moving, that's probably the suspension. Never known an engine mount to cause rocking when stopping.
Did the learning procedure a few times, maybe last time was 6 weeks ago.
That makes a difference, i think, but not enough.

No, not that kind of rocking you get with uneven braking. I guess the best way to describe that is just a feeling like a quick bounce up and down the body of the car. Probably just bouncing on the suspension, as you say. I dont think we can analyse that, its subjective. The engine mount pops up a lot in duscussions related to rough shifting and other similar stuff. Im ready to give it a try anyhow, if it fixes it i'll be happy, otherwise i can at least exclude it.

If you want to dramatically improve your ride quality, inspect all of your engine mounts. if they are ok, don't touch them. If they are rooted, replace them (I have spares).

Replace your front struts and get your springs looked at for sag. Do your rears too.

Have all your bushes inspected and replace the dodgy ones. Front lower control arm bushes go easily, so do tie rod ends.

I see you have had your transmission serviced recently? Get a cooler and external filter on there asap to keep it all running nice and smooth.

Since I bought my (used) AWD Verada I've never been happy with it's smoothness, or rather lack there of. Mine doesn't have the jerky takeoff that you described but it does have what I consider are rough gear changes. Nothing I've tried including transmission relearning and flushes have had any real or lasting affect.

However it also has what I'd describe as harshness on takeoff. The harder you accelerate the more pronounced the harsh feeling (vibration?) though the car. This is before any gear changes occur and only when taking off from standstill or thereabouts. It doesn't happen any other time during driving.

I've had various mechanics drive it but they either don't notice it or don't want to admit they don't know what it could be.

Anyway, long story short I decided to get 2 new tyres to replace the hard as a rock "HERO" tyres that were on the rear and had little grip in the wet. Since then this harshness has completely gone. From the second I drove out of the tyre yard last week and subsequent drives there hasn't been even a hint of it, even if I try to make it happen. Previously it was there every time. I wish I had known this 2 years ago as I've been waiting for the stupid tyres to wear out. The guy at the tyre place said the rubber was so hard they'd probably never wear out.

I have no idea how cheap tyres could cause this very unusual problem but I'm so glad it's gone. The car is so much nicer to drive now as I'm now not always consciously trying to take off slowly to reduce the effect. I now only have the gear changes and soft front suspension to annoy me. :(

However it also has what I'd describe as harshness on takeoff. The harder you accelerate the more pronounced the harsh feeling (vibration?) though the car. This is before any gear changes occur and only when taking off from standstill or thereabouts.

Anyway, long story short I decided to get 2 new tyres to replace the hard as a rock "HERO" tyres that were on the rear and had little grip in the wet. Since then this harshness has completely gone. :(

Its weird that you mention that. I have a similar vibration which is felt up through the floor pan and my kegs and visible in the rear vision mirror as the mirror vibrates. It only happens on take-off, is very quick and low intensity. More noticeable when cold. Reminds me of that thing the ABS does sometimes. Its very quick and so i dont notice it increasing with speed and its gone once the car has taken off and is moving.
I've had the front lower control arm bushes replaced which didnt fix it, although it did seem to reduce it a little. I've gotten used to it now.

One of the first things i did after getting the car was fit new tyres. They're Yokohama C drive, series 2. Used them on the KH (series 1's) for years and loved them for the grip. I think they're fairly soft tyres. So i dont think my vibration can be the same as yours.

As for progress on my issues; We've had a very sick family member past couple of weeks, which has taken priority over this. Was going to replace the driver side engine mount but then this happened. Actually the mount looks fine, but as mounts get mentioned a lot in discussions about shift quality i thought i'd start there.

So the issue i've got is a rough gear shift, feeling of a thump into gear when shifting, or a torque feeling. Not too bad but noticeably annoying after a while, especially when stuck in traffic. No one wants a kick in the ass every few minutes over an hour trip to work! No noise as such. Mostly at lower speeds in traffic. At high speed its not really noticeable and when braking from high speed and slowing down quickly it seems to change smoothly. I'd say its more noticeabke on up-shifts.
Its not severe, and most of the mechanics who've checked it think its normal. My problem i think, is that i've come from my KH which has always been silky smooth.

The other less important thing is an annoying noise at idle, like a tractor noise. Doesnt seem to be belts and i assume is drivetrain and TC noise. And then theres a strong thump when putting the car into reverse when cold. I think thats some minor slack in the diff which cant be fixed. Otherwise the car is perfect.

So the issue i've got is a rough gear shift, feeling of a thump into gear when shifting, or a torque feeling. No one wants a kick in the ass every few minutes over an hour trip to work!


That's exactly how I'd describe mine. Maybe it is normal and I'm being too critical, but when my older Hyundai Elantra changes gears much more smoothly it's hard not to think there's a problem with the Verada.



The other less important thing is an annoying noise at idle, like a tractor noise.


I don't hear anything like that from mine. If there's one thing I'm very happy with it's the engine.



And then theres a strong thump when putting the car into reverse when cold.


I haven't noticed anything like that, but I do get what sounds like diff whine (rear) at around 90-100km/h. It is high pitched and can get quite annoying.

I would check the condition of your uni joints on the tail shaft before blaming the rear diff for whining. The front section which has 4 bolts on one end and a spline into the transfer case at the other end - worth removing to check the joints properly as they can easily cause a whine or vibration if stuffed.

That's exactly how I'd describe mine. Maybe it is normal and I'm being too critical, but when my older Hyundai Elantra changes gears much more smoothly it's hard not to think there's a problem with the Verada...
Lol and i have an old Galant i use for odd jobs with 250+ k's on it which shifts smoother a lot of the time!
The thing is it that it may be "normal" or within spec, but if it can be improved then its sure worth it. Problem is finding anyone willing to spend some time fault tracing. My car presents like new with very low k's and i think a lot of guys compare it to the last car they worked on and think i've got nothing to worry about and wasting their time. Actually its my time and money i'm "wasting", and i paid extra for the low k's, its not by accident its like that! lol


I don't hear anything like that from mine. If there's one thing I'm very happy with it's the engine. That noise could be anything, and its not loud or anything. I dont believe its the engine. Probably just something vibrating afainst something else. I've fully serviced the car so nothing more to do there.


I haven't noticed anything like that, but I do get what sounds like diff whine (rear) at around 90-100km/h. It is high pitched and can get quite annoying.
I'm told that mines just got a little extra play in the diff. Still within "normal" range, but sometimes it can pack a wallop back there when cold and RPM is slightly up. Nothing to be done. I think that whine you have is common on these cars.

Im not going to have major components torn down to fix minor stuff unless its compromising the longevity of the component.
Thats the value driver for me actually and why i invested in the low k's; longevity. I'm expecting the car to last for as long as my KH has with proper maintenance. Thats at least 200,000 k's now and this thing only has 41k on it now.

I would check the condition of your uni joints on the tail shaft before blaming the rear diff for whining. The front section which has 4 bolts on one end and a spline into the transfer case at the other end - worth removing to check the joints properly as they can easily cause a whine or vibration if stuffed.

Thanks for that, I'll see about getting it checked out.

FWIW, I had a pair of C drive Yokos fitted to my AWD VRX, paired with the original Grid II spare and a new one. I hated them, noisy, harsh riding, and greasy grip whichever end they were on. A full set of Marangoni Vantos replaced them, and since then, 2 sets of BS RE001s, with a pair of 002s fitted the other week to the front with a pair of 50% 002s still up back. I might have been unlucky with the C Drives, but the pair I had just did not work on my AWD.

FWIW, I had a pair of C drive Yokos fitted to my AWD VRX, paired with the original Grid II spare and a new one. I hated them, noisy, harsh riding, and greasy grip whichever end they were on. A full set of Marangoni Vantos replaced them, and since then, 2 sets of BS RE001s, with a pair of 002s fitted the other week to the front with a pair of 50% 002s still up back. I might have been unlucky with the C Drives, but the pair I had just did not work on my AWD.
Greasy grip? U mean slippery? these tyres are incredibly grippy which js why i keep getting them. Wet or dry. Actually in the wet they're like magnets. In the FWD they give me a lot of confidence and i just assumed that would be the case on the AWD. I had some trouble getting the wheel balance right when they were fitted, the guys at Bob Jane really stuffed me around for a while, but after that they seem ok. Wear seems even. I dont notice much wheel noise, probably wouldnt notice anyway due to that tractor noise that i complain about. They're quiet in the FWD. They do tram a bit when really new, but it settles down after a couple of thousand k's. They're very soft and i've actually lost two due to stones getting driven into the tread and penetrating the walls with resulting slow deflation.

Well, i was running quite late to work today and got stuck in extra heavy traffic around 7 AM. I can confirm that harsh shift is most obvious at low speed. Changes from 1-2-3 all happen rapidly up to about 40km/h and they thump (without any actual noise being heard) into gear. Its not a sharp thump or anything like metal on metal feeling, it just feels like driving over a small pothole feels, a firm thump.
I think i'll try the relearning procedure again on the weekend. I want to go find a long flat stretch of road to do that.
As for that, its written for the 4 speed tranny but i assume its the same procedure.

The other thing is the jerky acceleration. Its annoying. It takes off quickly with only light pedal pressure which means i compensate by backing my foot off almost immediately and it then rapidly slows down giving that lurchy experience, where initially the rear is lowered as it leaps forward and then it nose-dives as it slows. This all happens everytime i inch forward in traffic unless im really careful wuth the pedal. It doesnt seem to happen everytime either, but often enough.

Im still getting that weird thing too when pulling up suddenly from higher speeds where at the last moment it kinda jerks to a halt, as if it lets go of the braking force for a split second and then resumes it. I guess its dropping into 1st but feels like a double jerk.

Checked TPS adjustment?

Checked TPS adjustment?
Well i asked the service guys to check it last time it was in and they said that they adjusted it.
I was thinking about the TPS after reading about it and i'm wondering if its worth just replacing it to exclude it as a problem.
Is it simple to replace?

The other thing is the jerky acceleration. Its annoying. It takes off quickly with only light pedal pressure which means i compensate by backing my foot off almost immediately and it then rapidly slows down giving that lurchy experience, where initially the rear is lowered as it leaps forward and then it nose-dives as it slows. This all happens everytime i inch forward in traffic unless im really careful wuth the pedal. It doesnt seem to happen everytime either, but often enough.
While I think I know what you're getting at, I don't usually notice this behaviour (though I have an early build TJ). I have occasionally experienced this when the 1->2 shift happens just as I take my foot off the accelerator. It was never that common, but is definitely less common since I've done the cams, headers & tune (though maybe I've adapted my driving to avoid it).

It may not be your style, but try driving exclusively using tippy mode in the problematic conditions to see whether it is shift related. After coming to a complete stop you can bump the shift to take off in 2nd.

In the low gears under fairly even throttle I can barely feel the shifts - only the tacho and exhaust sound give it away. I could imagine a choppy throttle action not being conducive to smooth operation. Has the throttle body been checked for any stickiness of the butterfly at small openings, or for that matter has the ISC been checked for cleanliness.

I would also note that 1st gear is a bit of a crawler ratio, with a relatively larger jump to second than the jumps for higher shifts, which you might not have subconciously adjusted to yet.

I do wonder whether the shift pressure setting may be out of spec on your trans, or perhaps the fluid pressure sensor. Also, I don't recall whether you've had the fluid changed in the box given its low kays (nominal change interval is 45000km), but if it hasn't been changed yet the fluid might be "stale" (for want of a better term) due to its age.

I found 45000km intervals far too long in the absence of an auxiliary ATF cooler, and even with a cooler fitted I have the fluid flushed every 25000-30000km (18-24 months for me).


Im still getting that weird thing too when pulling up suddenly from higher speeds where at the last moment it kinda jerks to a halt, as if it lets go of the braking force for a split second and then resumes it. I guess its dropping into 1st but feels like a double jerk.

This will be the shift down to first just as you come to a stop. See the comment above about shift pressure.

never mind

It may not be your style, but try driving exclusively using tippy mode in the problematic conditions to see whether it is shift related. After coming to a complete stop you can bump the shift to take off in 2nd
Ok, will do and report back.


In the low gears under fairly even throttle I can barely feel the shifts - only the tacho and exhaust sound give it away.
Absolute heaven, and exactly the experience i get in my KH.


I could imagine a choppy throttle action not being conducive to smooth operation. Has the throttle body been checked for any stickiness of the butterfly at small openings, or for that matter has the ISC been checked for cleanliness.
No. I will attend to these if you believe it could be the cause.


I would also note that 1st gear is a bit of a crawler ratio, with a relatively larger jump to second than the jumps for higher shifts, which you might not have subconciously adjusted to yet.
Well that was the first suggestion, when i first bought the car (a few months ago and about 15k ago now). But at some point we have to move away from that and start looking at other things. As i said somewhere else, my ancient Galant with 250,000 k's is smoother than this, and i've driven a few cars in my time.


I do wonder whether the shift pressure setting may be out of spec on your trans, or perhaps the fluid pressure sensor.
Now this is new, i dk anything about that, but will do some research. Immediate questions are : can the setting be checked and adjusted and can the sensor be replaced/adjusted and are they simple or complex jobs?


Also, I don't recall whether you've had the fluid changed in the box given its low kays (nominal change interval is 45000km), but if it hasn't been changed yet the fluid might be "stale" (for want of a better term) due to its age.
Yes, one of the first things i did was sort the ATF. Has been drain/filled a couple of times, and fully flushed with the correct Mits fluid and the levels monitored. ATF is very clear and clean looking.


This will be the shift down to first just as you come to a stop. See the comment above about shift pressure. ok.

Appreciate this thanks WytWun, gives me a few things that i can at least try.

I could imagine a choppy throttle action not being conducive to smooth operation. Has the throttle body been checked for any stickiness of the butterfly at small openings, or for that matter has the ISC been checked for cleanliness.
Ok, so i want to try this myself as it doesnt sound too difficult.
Would someone who knows please validate my assumptions:
Basic tools only needed,
The throttle body is the object attached to the right of the plenum chamber where the accelerator cable attaches,
Connected on its right side there is a large diameter rubber pipe, bolted on with a clamp secured by a screw,
This rubber pipe is short and feeds into the air filter assembly to its right,
This is the rubber pipe i need to remove to gain access to the inner throttle body and butterfly valve and the ISC?
Then, if i see any black soot, spray the area with cleaner.
i wont touch or adjust anything else there as i can imagine its all fine tuned stuff.

Questions:
Anything the novice should beware of?
I only need to undo the throttle body end of the pipe?
Dont need to remove anything else?
Does it matter if the cleaner or soot residue is forced back into the throttle body?
Do i need to use a rag?
Do i need to let it dry out?
Can someone recommend a product?
How critical is the reclamping of the pipe, any risk of leaks if i dont do it right or if the clamp is damaged?

Thanks in advance.

Questions:
Anything the novice should beware of?

A strange experience that I had with cleaning this is sometimes the car won't start properly first go. This will fix itself in my experience

I only need to undo the throttle body end of the pipe?

Well, yes. You need to clean it as thoroughly as possible, so if you can, remove the whole throttle body. If not, just clean what you can in there. You will get 99% of it from one end anyway.
Dont need to remove anything else?

I find it easier to remove the whole air intake and put it to a side. It is an easy process with a couple of screws and bolts along the way.

Does it matter if the cleaner or soot residue is forced back into the throttle body?

This is why you use carby cleaner instead of degreaser. It is safe on the throttle body.

Do i need to use a rag?

Yes, for basic clean up inside there. you don't want a litre of the stuff ending up in your intake.

Do i need to let it dry out?

Not really. I do, just because I do.

Can someone recommend a product?

Motorquip, (or similar) carby and throttle body cleaner. Is about $10-15 at auto stores.

How critical is the reclamping of the pipe, any risk of leaks if i dont do it right or if the clamp is damaged?

Don't allow post-maf air into your system. Can cause worse idling issues.

Thanks in advance.

Comments in red mate. Gather a few opinions before you take my word for it.

I do wonder whether the shift pressure setting may be out of spec on your trans, or perhaps the fluid pressure sensor.

Now this is new, i dk anything about that, but will do some research. Immediate questions are : can the setting be checked and adjusted and can the sensor be replaced/adjusted and are they simple or complex jobs?

Based on my reading of the Haynes manual I have, for testing the fluid pressure you need access to a hoist as all wheels need to be off the ground, and a suitable oil pressure gauge. The Haynes manual only shows the pressure spec tables for the 4 speed auto - I'm assuming the 5 speed has a similar procedure (some checking of the Mitsu W/S manual PDFs would be worthwhile to confirm this).

The Haynes manual uses the term "line pressure adjustment" where I used "shift pressure". Adjusting this appears to involve dropping the oil pan on the transmission and only needs doing if the "underdrive" line pressure is out of spec.

I can't find a fluid pressure sensor (or a fluid temperature sensor) in the Haynes circuit diagrams, although other information suggested such sensors are used in the Mitsu TCU code - Haynes diagrams could be incomplete too, particularly for the AWD, so if you find such sensors I'd like to know!

WytWun! my Ellerys manual shows it. Remove pan & remove valve body bolts to get at it. Sits right in one corner.
They refer to it as "oil temp. sensor"

I ended up getting CRC brand carb and throttle cleaner. Removed the inlet hose and resonator as one assembly, which was the easiest way to go.

The butterfly valve appeared to have a bronze, or rusty coloured coating although from the outside i didnt see any material built up on it. Checked the inlet hose and could see a stain where the colour has flowed into that a little too, as if there had been some fluid there at some stage.

The CRC flushed a lot of that bronze colour out. In fact i ended up using the whole can and it was still running that colour out when the can was empty. Is that expected?
It ran down, over the ISC and tranny housing, so afterwards i flushed that area with clean water.

There are two small rectangular ports in the bottom of the throttle body inlet lip that were full of CRC, so in case that might pose a problem i spent some time soaking it up with a rag.

After putting it back together it started but ran very rough for a few minutes with high RPM, about 1200. Eventually settled to normal. Idle seems very smooth.

Took it for a drive and there is an improvement, i noticed the shift was smoother :) Will monitor it over the next few days in my usual driving conditions to see how it goes.

WytWun! my Ellerys manual shows it. Remove pan & remove valve body bolts to get at it. Sits right in one corner.
They refer to it as "oil temp. sensor"
Bah! My manual is an Ellery not a Haynes :( Thanks for the nudge - I found the photo showing the temp sensor, but I can't find the sensor in the circuit diagrams where it should show how it connects to the ECU (which was what I was really after). I have found an ECU pin reference though.

Some pics for those interested:
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p629/Kwawd/IMG_2015_zpsed0f1c83.jpg
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p629/Kwawd/IMG_2018_zps43a49574.jpg

Bah! My manual is an Ellery not a Haynes :( Thanks for the nudge - I found the photo showing the temp sensor, but I can't find the sensor in the circuit diagrams where it should show how it connects to the ECU (which was what I was really after). I have found an ECU pin reference though.

Ah good! Yeah thought about it afterwards & figured thats probably what youre more interested in.

After putting it back together it started but ran very rough for a few minutes with high RPM, about 1200. Eventually settled to normal. Idle seems very smooth.

That would be the ECU recalibrating the ISC settings.


Took it for a drive and there is an improvement, i noticed the shift was smoother :) Will monitor it over the next few days in my usual driving conditions to see how it goes.

Glad to hear that you've made some progress for a very modest investment! You might still want to clean the ISC separately (I believe those 2 ports you mentioned are part of the ISC system) - see grelise's DIY (http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87966).

That would be the ECU recalibrating the ISC settings.

Glad to hear that you've made some progress for a very modest investment! You might still want to clean the ISC separately (I believe those 2 ports you mentioned are part of the ISC system) - see grelise's DIY (http://www.aussiemagna.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87966).
Cool, thanks. Hmm, those 2 ports were flooded with the CRC cleaner so I wonder if thats cleaned components related to the ISC? That might explain the improvement then.

I wish I'd seen those guides before i did this. It seems removing the ISC motor would have been a good move so as to properly clean the ISC motor.
What about the cleaner and its affect on the O ring and rubber seals...the cleaner entered those 2 ISC ports and I assume sat inside there behind the ISC motor for a while. Could that cause an issue or will it just evaporate?
I didnt reset the ISC after cleaning either, should I have?

Also, i notice in most other pictures of throttle bodies that the butterfly valves look fairly clean, but mine looked like rubbish with some oil film on it (see my earlier pics).

Seems like there is oil film build up in there, design fault?

Those 2 ports flow air and any CRC in there would have been sucked into the engine as soon as you started.

Oil film comes from the fumes in the engine breather pipe connected to the rear rocker cover. It connects to the large air duct about 20 cm from the throttle body. Hence the oily trail inside the air duct and on the throttle plate. Just means your car is no longer new and the engine is putting out some oil fumes.

Those 2 ports flow air and any CRC in there would have been sucked into the engine as soon as you started.
But I spent about 15 minutes spraying the throttle body, mucking around and soaking those 2. So the solvent was sitting inside there for at least that time. I really hope it wont corrode any of the components, like insulation or plastic or gaskets and O ring.


Just means your car is no longer new and the engine is putting out some oil fumes. hmm, even with only 40,000 k's on the clock?

But I spent about 15 minutes spraying the throttle body, mucking around and soaking those 2. So the solvent was sitting inside there for at least that time. I really hope it wont corrode any of the components, like insulation or plastic or gaskets and O ring.

hmm, even with only 40,000 k's on the clock?

Damage to the ISC components is unlikely but you could always pull it apart and see, if you are that worried about it.

Damage to the ISC components is unlikely but you could always pull it apart and see, if you are that worried about it.
Why do you say that? I think this stuff is fairly aggressive. Rubber O rings and gaskets absorb stuff like this. Will see how it is over the next few days, if alls well then i will just leave well enough alone.
But if anything goes wrong with the idle or economy then, yeah, will have to do it.

Its just too bad i didnt know about those air bypass ports and the potential risks.
Makes me think i shouldnt be doing stuff on the car myself, no matter how "easy" it seems. Ignorance is the silent enemy.

A couple of bits of tape over those ports would have helped. But it should be ok, neoprene "O" rings are tough. It swells up in some really aggressive solvents like paint thinners, but shrinks again as the solvent dries out.

You know, I'm really surprised you say the car has only 40,000 km on it. From the pictures it looks a lot more. I recently pulled the intake off my TL at 137,000 km and found it really clean. There was a tiny oil smudge on the mouth of the throttle body, that wiped off with a finger. Also, you have problems with gear shift, and I vaguely remember leaking rocker cover gaskets? Not typical of a 40,000 km car, should look and drive like a new one. Have you had the car from new, if not can you be sure the speedo reading is accurate?

You know, I'm really surprised you say the car has only 40,000 km on it. From the pictures it looks a lot more?
I carefully checked the history with the owner before purchase, all papers checked out.
Mals had a look at it as well as a few others. It looks, feels abd drives like new. Showroom condition when i picked it up.

The only problems from my perspectuve is that it has a bit of slack in the rear diff that i dont like, but Mal doesnt think its too bad, the harsh shift that i believe could be better and some black powder stain around the rocker cover bolts. Tightened the bolts on the covers and so far that has not returned.

As for the harsh shift, if its not this dirty throttle body and ISC then could be a seal issue given the low k's and age. Mostly short trips in its history. But i'll try everything else before giving up. And as for the butterfly valve; i'd assume same issue, lots of short trips.

I am pleased to report that the "jerky" behaviour is resolved! The car now takes off smoothly and is easy to control.
I can slide off from a standstill without any "great leap forward".

Now i also noticed that generally the harsh shift is also much improved. I want to hold off on declaring victory on that tho until i've had it in heavy traffic. This morning was fairly light on the road (always is on a Monday) but this is all very promising. For example at speeds above about 40 k's i didnt notice any harshness to speak of, so thats improved, but the test will be sustained bumper to bumper traffic when it has to upshift frequently 1-2-3 on short notice.

The car now takes off smoothly and is easy to control.
I can slide off from a standstill without any "great leap forward".

Now i also noticed that generally the harsh shift is also much improved.

Wow! That's great news. I'll have to see about doing mine in the hope it will improve things, even if only a little. Now eagerly awaiting you're final verdict.

Wow! That's great news. I'll have to see about doing mine in the hope it will improve things, even if only a little. Now eagerly awaiting you're final verdict.
Ok, well you can go ahead because this has made a HUGE difference. :) Seriously amazing. The first thing is the jerky behavior is all gone. I can take off smoothly now. Secondly the shift quality is far improved. I kept tensing up this morning waiting for the thumps, but they didn't come!

Being critical, heh, i can still detect some harshness sometimes between 1st and 2nd at crawl speed.
I think i'll do this again because it was still flushing out colour when my can of CRC ran out. I may get the thing properly cleaned and gaskets and O ring replaced as well. Probably do this at the same time as the rocker cover gaskets and tube seals get done, although no rush on that.

So whats happenening then? I assume, based on my simplistic understanding of the fuel system, that the air fuel mix was varying out of spec under some conditions. Maybe gunk blocking some vent or interfering with the ISC operation, i dk.

Just to make it clear, i sprayed the inner throttle body and the solvent flushed out of the mouth (and down over the ISC case). Some spray went on the throttle cable area (that coiled cable structure next to the TB). Solvent also flooded the air bypass vents in the mouth if the TB and presumably whatever they lead to.

As discussed above, there is a potential risk of the solvent damaging rubber gaskets i guess, so maybe if you do this you should block those vents, with say tape or something. Or maybe the problem is in that area... You can only try it.

I used CRC Carbie and Throttle Body cleaner.
So, i will do this one more time and probably then try the transmission learning procedure after that for good measure.

Very happy :)

So whats happenening then? I assume, based on my simplistic understanding of the fuel system, that the air fuel mix was varying out of spec under some conditions. Maybe gunk blocking some vent or interfering with the ISC operation, i dk.

{...}. Solvent also flooded the air bypass vents in the mouth if the TB and presumably whatever they lead to.
Unless the butterfly was actually sticking as a result of the gunk build-up, I would suspect that most of the benefit is a result of the solvent that went into the ISC ports. If the ISC is sticking, then the ECU is fighting it trying to get a stable idle and failing - which will of course result in unpredictable mixtures. That solvent probably did enough to allow the ISC to operate more normally, albeit without fully cleaning it.

If you have a second go, I would be focusing on the ISC to get the best result.

Unless the butterfly was actually sticking as a result of the gunk build-up, I would suspect that most of the benefit is a result of the solvent that went into the ISC ports. If the ISC is sticking, then the ECU is fighting it trying to get a stable idle and failing - which will of course result in unpredictable mixtures. That solvent probably did enough to allow the ISC to operate more normally, albeit without fully cleaning it.

If you have a second go, I would be focusing on the ISC to get the best result.
I had someone operate the pedal during the clean and the butterfly appeared to open and close easily, but certainly it was still flushing out brown colour from that area.

I dont want to flood those ports again tho, due to that potentiak risk of damage to gaskets or the rubber O ring by the solvent. I'll leave it for when i get the rockers done (probably Feb now).

More good news, my fuel economy has improved slightly! Went from 12.5, which it has always sat rock solid on, to 12.4. Not much, but there you go.

Would maybe cleaning your throttlebody or lubricating your accellerator cable smooth things out a tad?, i had that problem in a corolla i owned, the throttle plate was sticking and it would leap forward when taking off, my AWD TL is smooth as, i owned a TF sports and that wasnt as smooth as this Good to see you have fixed your problem, i knew it had to be something to do with the T/B , you can enjoy your ride now :woot:

Omg, i cant believe how much improved the shift is now. I noticed today that accelerating doesnt cause that crazy high RPM issue i had before, where it was downshifting at odd times. I went back over many of my old posts and it seems many are sorted now.

The sad thing is that the car has had this harsh shift since i bought it, 16k ago and that is 40% of its entire travelling history (it only had 25k on it when i bought it). I sure hope that the harsh shifting hasnt caused any damage to the auto (like extra wear and tear). Probably would have got to this point sooner if i hadnt been rear ended twice.

Well, i notice some mild harshness still present at crawl speed between 1st and second, but its intermittent. I'm considering pulling the ISC off and cleaning it to see if that resolves it.

I read a guide here somewhere and posted some questions, but lost track of that now, so i'll put them here. I hope the experts here can give me some guidance.

The ISC has a rubber O ring and the guide says its difficult to fit as its slightly oversize. The guide says to use rubber grease.

1. What is rubber grease, why do we put it on the O ring, and where can i get it and what brand/product? How much do we apply?

2. Is it going to be ok to spray cleaner into the ISC hole? Any other rubber bits in there that might be damaged by the solvent? Or Gaskets?

3. Shouldn't we just replace the ISC and O ring with new ones, rather than cleaning?

4. Is there any ISC adjustment possible/required?

5. what about idle, will it need adjustment after this?

Thanks in advance guys.

1. http://www.penriteoil.com.au/pis_pdfs/0RUBBER%20GREASE%20OCT%202011.pdf. Penrite everything. Repco, auto shops etc, hydraulics places.

2. I use contact cleaner on the ISC. Some people may disagree

4. Is there any ISC adjustment possible/required?

5. what about idle, will it need adjustment after this?
The ECU makes adjustments to bring everything into line. While I believe there is an external idle adjustment, I very much doubt that it needs to be touched unless it has been fiddled with while attempting to resolve the issue that you've now largely resolved by cleaning. I don't believe there is any ISC external adjustment - it is completely under ECU control.

The best way to get the idle settled, especially after an ECU reset (ie power disconnection), is simply to start the engine and let it idle for a few minutes - if starting hot, 7-10 minutes should be enough, otherwise if starting cold give it 12-15 minutes. This gives the ECU sufficient time with the oxygen sensor active to optimise the ISC & fuel trims for best idle.

If you don't give it a reasonable period of idling, the ECU will eventually get the settings close but it will take a fair bit longer.

The ECU makes adjustments to bring everything into line. While I believe there is an external idle adjustment, I very much doubt that it needs to be touched unless it has been fiddled with while attempting to resolve the issue that you've now largely resolved by cleaning. I don't believe there is any ISC external adjustment - it is completely under ECU control.

Thanks WytWun! As for fiddling with the idle screw; no way i would adjust anything like that. End up chasing my tail that way.

Bad news, i read in the service manual that the ISC, TPS and the lower chamber of the TB should NOT be soaked in solvent because the "insulation" will deteriorate. I'm not sure what "insulation" is unless its the wiring. :( if im reading that correctly then we should not be spraying solvent into it while its installed. Need to remove it, tear it down, and wash the TB separately. Great, too late for me. I assume if any damage has been done then i'll find out in due course.

After reading the service manual and that warning I think the correct procedure (on car) would be to replace the ISC and its O ring for new, and only wipe out its bolt hole with a rag, or blow it out with compressed air, rather than trying to clean the ISC or spray solvent into its bolt hole. I think we can safely spray the TB mouth and butterfly so long as those air vents are covered. But another issue is that the solvent can flood out and over the ISC connector if you spray a lot as i did, so this whole procedure is problematical. Probably best not to flood the TB with solvent at all, just a light spray, let it soak, and then wipe it out and repeat until happy.

I'm still not sure about the Rubber grease, can someone confirm; is that to stick the O ring in place during fitting? If so how much do we use?

TPS is well out of the way of any solvent you sprayed, so should be ok.
ISC has electrical coils in it, these wires are insulated with varnish and this will break down if you drop the whole ISC in a bucket of paint solvent, and leave it overnight. In your case, it should be ok. The rubber grease is to make the "O" ring slippery so that it slides in smoothly rather than get chopped up in the install process.

If the car is running ok I wouldn't touch it. ISC motors tend to fail all by themselves with age, and then you can muck about with it. lol

ISC has electrical coils in it, these wires are insulated with varnish and this will break down if you drop the whole ISC in a bucket of paint solvent, and leave it overnight.
Ah! Thank you, that makes perfect sense. Hmm, I can't imagine that I dissolved the coil varnish, it was bolted on the car and protected from the overflow. Solvent possibly got to the ISC itself via the air bypass vents, but I'd be really unlucky. Anyhow, if that was going to happen surely it would have by now and there would be idle problems, so I'm not concerned about that.

If the car is running ok I wouldn't touch it. ISC motors tend to fail all by themselves with age, and then you can muck about with it. lol
Well I know a bit about electronics, quite a bit more than i know about mechanics. If the ISC had an electrical issue, (or coil failure) or a mechanical issue (such as being clogged up with gunk) causing partial opening or closing or sticking then I'd expect to see erratic idle, but it seems pretty good to my untrained eye. I suspect there was gunk in the vents of the TB that the solvent washed out.

The TB probably needs a proper clean, which I might get done if/when I do the rocker covers and tube seals. So far the rocker leaks have not returned.

Ok, I've found some fallout from the carbe cleaner operation; the EGR valve has some gunk in it, must have happened when I used the TB cleaner and its overflowed into it.
Will it cause any issues, and should I replace it?

http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p629/Kwawd/IMG_2240_zpsa123ceaa.jpg