Hi Guys,

I'm looking at some cars on Carsales that are 7-8 years old and have sub 100,000 Km claims. Now - all of this is great IF it is genuine can be proven. I've spoke with two of them so far (there are three) and if it's not too discriminatory there were some heavy accents in both cases? :hmm:

When I asked if the Service History's could be proven - both said they had the books and when I asked who had been doing the services, one said his brother (used to work for Mitsy dealer - now has his own shop) - the other said his cousin had a workshop?

Now if they're being honest - then all is great - but if they have swapped speedo's with wrecked cars then of course it's just outright fraud! :tired:

My question is - how easy is it to do? I remember seeing a story on Today Tonight recently about speedo swapping - might even have been in Victoria!

Cheers

Steve

Ask for receipts for the services performed. Its a bit difficult to fake that. If they can provide that and you're still in doubt, consult with the workshop who performed the services and ask if they can confirm the service history.

Perhaps most importantly, inspect the vehicle closely to see if the condition of the vehicle substantiates the amount of kilometres travelled! Use your instincts, if it looks too good to be true, it could well be. Check the condition of the gear shift knob and steering wheel. At under 100,000km they should still have texture and look reasonably new (sun damage excluding, obviously, as the car may well have low km, but that doesn't dictate where the car has been stored), check the condition of the upholstery for wear, including the carpets. Check the engine bay for signs of a timing belt change, the condition of the fluids, etc.

BTW the accent thing, I wouldn't be inclined to base your decisions on that aspect, I'm sure there are plenty of legit traders that have emigrated to Australia. I think the TT story you're referring to is below, and was happening in NSW (though I'm certain it happens in every state)

http://au.news.yahoo.com/today-tonight/consumer/cars/article/-/15403067/franks-day-in-court/

http://au.news.yahoo.com/today-tonight/consumer/cars/article/-/10491823/car-yard-raids/

Sure, its easy to do, you can pick up a low km cluster off eBay for under $200. But thats why we have checks like VCheck, Carhistory, REVS and PPRS, which keep track of change of ownership dates and the corresponding mileage, encumberance and writeoffs. Well worth the $40 or so dollar investment.

Ask for receipts for the services performed. Its a bit difficult to fake that. If they can provide that and you're still in doubt, consult with the workshop who performed the services and ask if they can confirm the service history.

Perhaps most importantly, inspect the vehicle closely to see if the condition of the vehicle substantiates the amount of kilometres travelled! Use your instincts, if it looks too good to be true, it could well be. Check the condition of the gear shift knob and steering wheel. At under 100,000km they should still have texture and look reasonably new (sun damage excluding, obviously, as the car may well have low km, but that doesn't dictate where the car has been stored), check the condition of the upholstery for wear, including the carpets. Check the engine bay for signs of a timing belt change, the condition of the fluids, etc.

BTW the accent thing, I wouldn't be inclined to base your decisions on that aspect, I'm sure there are plenty of legit traders that have emigrated to Australia.

Thanks for your considered reply ammerty. Thanks also for the video links and the older age indications.

The accents wouldn't normally have worried me too much - if not for the fact that the guys live only a few K's apart and I just wondered if that might indicate something. For me - it's a 3 hour drive each way to go see, so a considerable investment in time.

Obviously the REVS check would be worthwhile if it helps - exactly what does one of these show?

Steve

Revs have a few differwnt checks but basically shows you if the car has ever been a repaired writeoff or if it has finance owing

getting a vehicle history check will give you most or all the information you need. major incidents, ownership changes with dates and/or mileage and i've heard some listing whether the car has ever been repossessed/has money owing. that $30 - $60 is worth the peace of mind.

Hi Guys,

Take a look at these examples - would love your feedback:

http://tinyurl.com/bp9qxsw

http://tinyurl.com/bn324xo

Steve

major incidents, ownership changes with dates and/or mileage and i've heard some listing whether the car has ever been repossessed/has money owing. that $30 - $60 is worth the peace of mind.

I agree - if'n they're that detailed they would be worth it. I guess you'd shortlist it to the two that you most like - then screen the two.

Cheers

Steve

I think it's the same guy. Price and mileage are nearly the same and also the spelling and grammer are both along the same lines and messed up in the same way !!

I personally would run the other way from these two but if they still interest you, pay for the history check for sure !!

Look fine to me

Cars look ok, but mechanically who knows?
I would ignore the speedo reading, and check out the car carefully for condition. There are things you can look for that give a really good indicator of true km, like driveshaft boots (tend to split at high km), wear on the driver's seat (foam collapses) and ancillary belts (if they are brand new you know the car has done 100,000 km or thereabouts), leaks from the rocker covers, oil in spark plug tubes (just pull one front one up a couple of cm.). Both cars have alloy wheels so it's easy to inspect the discs for wear. At the km quoted they should look pretty close to new, unless the car has been mercilessly flogged all of it's life.
Only after looking the car over, then look at the speedo and see if it looks about right.

A lot of people stop servicing a car well before they sell it, so a service record that stops at say 65,000 km is no guarantee unless the date on that service entry is very recent. Apparently there are illegal electronic devices available that can reset ODO readings to whatever you want. So go by condition, not Km. Take a knowledgeable mate with you or get the car inspected by a motoring organisation.

I would have the white wagon, if I didn't already have one, but I would inspect it carefully, try to knock the price down, and then be prepared to spend time and money on getting the servicing up to date.

From the similar wording of both ads it sounds like a dealer pretending to be a private seller. Identical spelling errors in both ads, so same guy. This is becoming more common as it avoids giving a dealer warranty with the car.

Also a good idea to do a Google search on the rego numbers to get more info, like where else it is advertised, or if it has been sold on several times. Obviously if you come across a 12 month old ad for the car showing higher km, you are looking at a con job.

Example of a VCheck report (QLD Transport version of a REVS check):

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/1823/53990847.jpg

REVS check tells you that the car is not stolen, and not on the written off vehicle registry, nor are there no "interests" from banks/money lenders. Good to know, but fairly limited info.

Which is why you use a more comprehensive service such as carhistory.com.au, which may possibly show change of ownership dates and mileage.

The last time I purchased a car, I had to look at quite a few. I found that many were supposedly being sold by a father (or friend) for a daughter, wife, son or another friend, who were never there. The father would just say that they knew nothing about the car. I always looked underneath and would find bits missing indicating they had been in a front end accident or open the doors and look at the A-pillar to see that they had been repaired in this area.

Thanks for all the replies so far guys - appreciate it! I spoke to both guys and their similarity in location (near Tullamarine) and accents did ring some bells. That plus the fact that one claimed his brothers shop did the servicing and the other said his cousin - easy to fake. I mean wind the speedo back and then use books from a wrecked unit or similar....

I'd love to trust them, but what's that Latin expression = Caveat Emptor (I think) - let the buyer beware (our words sus). :woot:

Steve

Take a knowledgeable mate with you or get the car inspected by a motoring organisation.

I would have the white wagon, if I didn't already have one, but I would inspect it carefully, try to knock the price down, and then be prepared to spend time and money on getting the servicing up to date.

From the similar wording of both ads it sounds like a dealer pretending to be a private seller. Identical spelling errors in both ads, so same guy. This is becoming more common as it avoids giving a dealer warranty with the car.

Also a good idea to do a Google search on the rego numbers to get more info, like where else it is advertised, or if it has been sold on several times. Obviously if you come across a 12 month old ad for the car showing higher km, you are looking at a con job.

Thanks MadMax - some things like Googling Rego's that I had not thought of - excellent idea! I did notice the poor spelling and grammar (it's a "thing" of mine) :kb:

I have a good mate that worked at Repco for years - he's really knowledgeable and a good haggler; so it's likely he would come along - if i even go there. More work required! :happy:

Cheers

Steve

Thanks - great site - price is not too bad either.

Steve

Also a good idea to do a Google search on the rego numbers to get more info, like where else it is advertised, or if it has been sold on several times. Obviously if you come across a 12 month old ad for the car showing higher km, you are looking at a con job.

:hmm: Did a Google of the rego's - interestingly they appear on Gumtree too with two different owner names (Jack becomes Bill, Ali becomes May) and in each case showing an address that's about 8-10 KM away from the original. I think I'll steer clear of these two - they may look great, but if they're playing games with that stuff, what else are they doing? Might just phone them and tell them too.

Steve

For what it is worth, in NSW, the vehicles have to have a roadworthy every year in order to register them. Part of the roadworthy records the odometer reading. it may be possible to check back via the RTA or whatever they are called this week. Obviously it wouldn't apply in Victoria.

:hmm: Did a Google of the rego's - interestingly they appear on Gumtree too with two different owner names (Jack becomes Bill, Ali becomes May) and in each case showing an address that's about 8-10 KM away from the original. I think I'll steer clear of these two - they may look great, but if they're playing games with that stuff, what else are they doing? Steve

While Googling the two guys that had the really great priced TW's with super-low K's, I noticed pictures of other Magnas on Gumtree at Coolaroo (a suburb that had come up in earlier queries) - when I clicked on at least one of them I recognised the same photo setting for a previous shoot, but on a different Magna. I am blown away - these guys definitely ARE reselling cars (particularly Magna's) and probably fiddling the speedos too; hence the "my brother's workshop does the services" statement! :eeek:

Steve

Nice bit of detective work there!

Obviously the "my brother's workshop" does a lot more than "services". lol

Watch this! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syxYjYx3aSA

How many Magnas do they have on the go all at once? There's a limit to how many cars you can sell within a certain time period as a private seller. May be worth a phone call to some government department if they are trading without any sort of dealer's license?

Nice bit of detective work there!

Obviously the "my brother's workshop" does a lot more than "services". lol

Watch this! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syxYjYx3aSA

How many Magnas do they have on the go all at once? There's a limit to how many cars you can sell within a certain time period as a private seller. May be worth a phone call to some government department if they are trading without any sort of dealer's license?

All thanks to your advice MadMax! :happy:

One of the "brothers" forgot that we had spoken on the phone yesterday, got confused and rang me today asking if I had SMS'd him yesterday. I told him we had spoken on the phone - at which point he remembered me from my location. So I asked him was he Jack or the other guy? He said that Jack was his brother! I then said that I had noticed a lot of cars being sold from that Coolaroo area and that I was a bit concerned about this - at this point he got all nervous and quickly wrapped up, saying that I could call him if I wanted to meet. :woot:

Steve

Doesnt sound right. At the time i bought mine, i ran a vcheck, a carhistory.com check and i had the RACQ do a premium inspection. I also inspected all the service history documents and spoke with the previous owners.

The car itself was the best piece of evidence though; having only 25,000 k's on it and garaged all its life every part looked brand new. From the body which looked like it had just rolled off the showroom floor to the engine bay which was spotless. I do mean spotless too, as in no dirt, oil or grease stains and obviously had never even been washed. Made my KH, which i thought i had kept very clean, look positively filthy. It had extremely low k's, but the condition of the engine bay is a useful measure.

Of course, after a year, 15,000 k's and a few services the car looks a little dirtier now.

Dealers can make most cars look like new, high pressure wash of the engine bay gets rid of a lot of oil leaks (if any) and dirt, interior clean, wax and polish on paintwork, shine up the plastics, etc.
I don't go by appearances but concentrate on things that can't be hidden, like worn/collapsed driver seat material and foam, wear on the steering wheel, condition of driveshaft boots, remotes working, contral locking working, climate working, etc. Then look at the price tag and speedo again and see if any alarm bells ring. lol Generally private sale cars are much more realistically presented.

A perfectly clean engine compartment should be checked after about 1,000 km to get a real feel if things are ok or you have leaks.

All thanks to your advice MadMax! :happy:

One of the "brothers" forgot that we had spoken on the phone yesterday, got confused and rang me today asking if I had SMS'd him yesterday. I told him we had spoken on the phone - at which point he remembered me from my location. So I asked him was he Jack or the other guy? He said that Jack was his brother! I then said that I had noticed a lot of cars being sold from that Coolaroo area and that I was a bit concerned about this - at this point he got all nervous and quickly wrapped up, saying that I could call him if I wanted to meet. :woot:
Steve

lol "Jack" will always be the brother, no matter which member of the family you talk to! An old trick, that one!
Got nervous, did he? lol What's he got to be nervous about, I wonder? A genuine seller will push you for a sale every chance he gets, not wrap up a conversation quickly. Smells scammy to me! lol

Dealers can make most cars look like new, high pressure wash of the engine bay gets rid of a lot of oil leaks (if any) and dirt, interior clean, wax and polish on paintwork, shine up the plastics, etc.
That's true, of course, I was speaking of my car which had that new, untouched look.
These cars typically have high k's on them now and you're not going to find too many of them left with the very low k's, I imagine. The engine bay condition won't be much help as far as judging mileage goes.

lol "Jack" will always be the brother, no matter which member of the family you talk to! An old trick, that one!
Got nervous, did he? lol What's he got to be nervous about, I wonder? A genuine seller will push you for a sale every chance he gets, not wrap up a conversation quickly. Smells scammy to me! lol

Detective work continued. The two separate ads on Carsales were in the Coolaroo area (near Tullamarine); just a few K's down the road from Manheim Auctions.

In my opinion the guys were buying Magna's at auction - prettying them up with mags and detailing - then dropping the 100 off the 190,000 odd K's.

Both "private sales" vanished after I did a Pennytel SMS to each, saying that I knew what they were up to. :hmm:

A good to tell in a anoluge dash of a 3rd Gen Magna is to switch the dash lights on and if you can see light shinning through the trip meter reset button then more then likely it has been tampered with as there is a shroud over the back of the odometer on them and it has to be removed to to get into it. Please don't ask how i know but lets say i've kinda been told and seen it too

Analog speedos are bast#rds to rewind. Did it once on a Sigma, reset to to zero as I'd rebuilt the engine.
No, I didn't try to sell the car with the low reading, car eventually went to the wreckers. Anyone looking for parts on it though would have looked at the speedo and gone WTF. lol

Digital speedos are easy to reset if you have the right equipment.

Detective work continued. The two separate ads on Carsales were in the Coolaroo area (near Tullamarine); just a few K's down the road from Manheim Auctions.

In my opinion the guys were buying Magna's at auction - prettying them up with mags and detailing - then dropping the 100 off the 190,000 odd K's.

Both "private sales" vanished after I did a Pennytel SMS to each, saying that I knew what they were up to. :hmm:

You may be able to prove this and pass their details onto the police.
Do a google on any/all of the cars Regos/VINs you have, see if you get a hit on an auction website showing the original Kms and proving they were wound back.

You may be able to prove this and pass their details onto the police.
Do a google on any/all of the cars Regos/VINs you have, see if you get a hit on an auction website showing the original Kms and proving they were wound back.

Hi Cashie,

I probably should have - but wasn't sure if they'd be interested - or which department to go to either. Probably a good idea for us Victorian guys (and friends, families etc) to be aware of a couple of dudes operating in that Coolaroo (Tullamarine) area. They were primarily using Carsales.com.au and Gumtree.

I found them after MadMax had suggested Googling rego numbers - fantastic idea!! :happy:

Steve

Oops! Forgot to say - they were TL & TW Wagons and Sedans.

Steve

Hi Cashie,

I probably should have - but wasn't sure if they'd be interested - or which department to go to either. Probably a good idea for us Victorian guys (and friends, families etc) to be aware of a couple of dudes operating in that Coolaroo (Tullamarine) area. They were primarily using Carsales.com.au and Gumtree.

I found them after MadMax had suggested Googling rego numbers - fantastic idea!! :happy:

Steve

Good one Steve, you may save someone on here from being suckered into their scam.
The police would be very interested, the Vic Police used to have a special section (not sure if they still do) for vehicle crime like this.

Analog speedos are bast#rds to rewind. Did it once on a Sigma, reset to to zero as I'd rebuilt the engine.
No, I didn't try to sell the car with the low reading, car eventually went to the wreckers. Anyone looking for parts on it though would have looked at the speedo and gone WTF. lol

Digital speedos are easy to reset if you have the right equipment.

the wrecker mightve paid more thinking it was low kms, and someone got the transmission thinking it was hardly used so your still ripping someone off. its still deceptive conduct even if the engine is recoed the rest of the car's still shagged.

modifing the kms on a cluster isn't illegal, putting a cluster with different kms in a car is.

the wrecker mightve paid more thinking it was low kms, and someone got the transmission thinking it was hardly used so your still ripping someone off. its still deceptive conduct even if the engine is recoed the rest of the car's still shagged.

modifing the kms on a cluster isn't illegal, putting a cluster with different kms in a car is.

Might have, but didn't. Standard tow-it-away for free job, wrecker paid zip.
Rebuilt engine blew - con rod bolt snapped and threw a rod out of the side of the block. Built a new engine, block on that cracked and engine was heat damaged. Got sick of the whole thing and had it towed away.
So if anyone got sucked in by that car and lost lots of money on it, it wasn't the wrecker or anyone scrounging parts off it. So back off, dude.

Might have, but didn't. Standard tow-it-away for free job, wrecker paid zip.
Rebuilt engine blew - con rod bolt snapped and threw a rod out of the side of the block. Built a new engine, block on that cracked and engine was heat damaged. Got sick of the whole thing and had it towed away.
So if anyone got sucked in by that car and lost lots of money on it, it wasn't the wrecker or anyone scrounging parts off it. So back off, dude.

how do u know someone didn't buy the transmission? meh as long as it was sold in SA idgaf.

how do u know someone didn't buy the transmission? meh as long as it was sold in SA idgaf.
because no one in their right mind would believe a 20 year old Sigma would only have 20,000 km on the speedo? Mmmmm?

"because no one in their right mind would believe a 20 year old Sigma would only have 20,000 km on the speedo? Mmmmm? "

In 1985, we traded in a 1978 Sigma on our TM Magna. The odometer only had 5 digits and it showed 43000 km. It actually had 143000 km, but because if its condition, I am sure that the dealer took it and sold it as 43000. We told him it was 143000, and he commented on how good it was. Nothing illegal in that deal, except maybe the dealer selling it on as a low km car. Can't do that now because of 6 digit odometers.