While "downunder" the car today - I noticed a disturbing amount of oil on the cross-member. I then tracked it to what appears to be a vertical mating surface between the transmission and the engine. (Looks like the tranny has two mating surfaces?)

Now - I've only just bought the car and am already beating myself up for not noticing it when I purchased it! So go easy guys; on the day I checked it it was around 32C in the yard and that bitumen was HOT, so though I should have I did not lay down and check for leaks.

Today I could see what appears to be the brownish-red of a paper gasket, I think between engine and trans - is that factory, or something afterwards?

Is it likely that I could have a good mechanic go over the surfaces and tighten the fasteners and eliminate the leak? If not - whats the worst case scenario? :facepalm

There's no real gasket, as such, between the engine and the transmission. It's a metal "sandwhich" plate and to my knowledge, no sealant is used. The red-brownish substance could be a high-temp gasket sealant/maker that someone has put there.

I'd be inclined to say the oil leak is likely coming from the front rocker cover or the camshaft cap o-ring. Both very common places where oil leaks from. If the camshaft cap o-ring went hard then the oil could seep down onto the transmission/engine joining point.

Replacing the front rocker cover gasket is easy and shouldn't cost more than minimum labour, but the camshaft cap o-ring can be a bit expensive depending the route the mechanic takes; there's a long way where you remove the intake plenum, injector lines and then the themostat housings or the short way where you cut the bolts out and shave a tiny bit out of the head of the new bolt and slip it in at a angle to clear the thermostat housing. Latter is easier and works a charm.

And dont beat yourself up over it. Good luck finding any 8-10 year old without at least one thing wrong with it!

Clean it and find the oil leak, dont guess

There is no gasket in the place you mention, there are no oil galleries there either

Is either thrust cap / rocker cover oil leaking which has trapped the oil, I see this often when replacing transmissions or the torque converter seal / rear main seal leaking.

I'd be inclined to say the oil leak is likely coming from the front rocker cover or the camshaft cap o-ring. Both very common places where oil leaks from. If the camshaft cap o-ring went hard then the oil could seep down onto the transmission/engine joining point.

Thanks PI - certainly the dealer had cleaned the upper parts of the engine; so that it looked "as new". This could easily hide leaks that could be making their way downwards. There was a fair amount of fresh oil sitting there - it wasn't red, so I don't believe it was trans fluid - nevertheless you get a shock when you find something like that.

If I HAD noticed it on the day I probably would not have purchased the car; but the rest of the car appears in good nick. This just rattles you a bit - you imagine some guy saying "yeah we can fix that; probably around $$$$". :kb:

Clean it and find the oil leak, dont guess

There is no gasket in the place you mention, there are no oil galleries there either

Is either thrust cap / rocker cover oil leaking which has trapped the oil, I see this often when replacing transmissions or the torque converter seal / rear main seal leaking.

Thanks for your advice also Madmagna - I really appreciate the support given by you guys!

I will clean it - need to track this down; but your (and PI's) advice helps relax a fella a lot. I was thinking it was an engine-out type of problem!:eek2:

Still fairly certain that I saw a paper gasket edge though - is that likely in any scenario?

Steve

the dealer had cleaned the upper parts of the engine; so that it looked "as new". This could easily hide leaks that could be making their way downwards.

Same here, pristine when I bought the TL but 1,000 km later oil all over the bottom of the engine. Rocker cover gaskets in my case.
It's one of the little things you can expect with a second hand car from a dealer, not unusual.

Give it a good clean, run engine and run finger along joint between head and rocker cover. Oily finger = new rocker cover gaskets needed.

9/10 is a rocker cover gasket. Easy as to change. Doing the rear one gets more involved, but is still rather easy.

What he said.
Good time to do the tube seals too. If the gaskets are brittle the tube seals will be too.

What he said.
Good time to do the tube seals too. If the gaskets are brittle the tube seals will be too.

That's a given. Bursons do a kit that includes the tube seals. If the rocker cover gasket is gone, tube seals won't be too far behind it.

9/10 is a rocker cover gasket. Easy as to change. Doing the rear one gets more involved, but is still rather easy.

While it looks as though the front cover will be OK to change - man, that rear cover is buried! FWIW - I had a pretty good look today scoping out whether I could see an oil path from the rocker covers; I couldn't? You guys sure that this sounds like that??

Steve

$27 for cover gasket and seal kit, is ACL brand so good quality

After a clean look for oil, may also be left over from a previous leak

Was there any warranty with the car? In qld dealers of used vehicles must supply 3 mths warranty by law. Not sure what happens in other states.

Was there any warranty with the car? In qld dealers of used vehicles must supply 3 mths warranty by law. Not sure what happens in other states.

Thanks Smithy - I bought it in SA and I'm in Victoria; so I gave up the Warranty otherwise I would have had to get the car back to them. I'm not happy with myself - I feel like I rushed it and what with getting stuffed around by a couple of other sellers I guess I did! :mad:

Aaah - hindsight!!

Steve

I'm not happy with myself - I feel like I rushed it and what with getting stuffed around by a couple of other sellers I guess I did! :mad:

Aaah - hindsight!!

Steve

I keep going over and over a pretty well "perfect" 5 speed TL wagon on LPG; that I passed over because the owner would not drop to my price. If I had come up to hers; I may not be in this situation and would have had a better vehicle!

Sometimes it doesn't pay to haggle too hard - if you see something you like its better to pay a bit more. Looks like we'll end up paying at least as much (if not more) for the TJ anyway - by the time we do repairs, rubber, roadworthy etc! :angry:

Really depends on how you go about the repairs. There are NO gaskets between the motor and box, highly doubt the rear main seal or torque converter seal are leaking as would be highly rare. This leaves things like cover gaskets. Not a biggie really

Tyres, again, some like us do tyre and wheel packs for second hand sets off wrecked cars, I have 2 good 16" sets here, one set of 5 has almost brand new Maxis tyres on them. You can save a little here and there.

I keep going over and over a pretty well "perfect" 5 speed TL wagon on LPG; that I passed over because the owner would not drop to my price. If I had come up to hers; I may not be in this situation and would have had a better vehicle!

Sometimes it doesn't pay to haggle too hard - if you see something you like its better to pay a bit more. Looks like we'll end up paying at least as much (if not more) for the TJ anyway - by the time we do repairs, rubber, roadworthy etc! :angry:

No such thing as a "perfect" used car. Normal wear and tear, little problems the previous owner had gotten used to, neglected servicing because the previous owner was going to sell anyway. I bet if you had bought that TL you would be saying the same thing right now.
Bought enough used cars in the past to ask myself questions like "What will be wrong with it?" and "How much will it cost to get up to good condition?"
In the past I've bought cars that needed engine rebuilds and repainting. Getting older/wiser/slower/more cashed up these days so I wouldn't bother touching a low priced car now.

Getting older/wiser/slower/more cashed up these days so I wouldn't bother touching a low priced car now.

Thanks Mad! :happy:

Ultimately there was only $1000 between the two cars. One was $6000 and the one I missed out on was asking $7000 - but had not had the Timing belt done (but neither has the TJ). Again in hindsight I probably should have just tried to negotiate for a few $$ towards the belt - then would have had a TL with 5 speed and LPG.

As it stands now - I had to pay to fly to SA; buy the car, fuel back to Vic, tyres, Roadworthy and whatever they pick up, Rego etc. It will probably cost more IMO.

Never mind - no point crying over spilt ULP now! Though I can still be ticked with myself! :hmm:

Steve

Eh this is no biggie. Don't beat yourself up over it. Few people would've probably noticed and besides, it's hardly a big problem. In-fact many owners don't even bother to replace the gaskets and have the oil cake on 2" thick. If you really didnt care you could just about get away with it, even for 15,000km service intervals. Only issue really would be burning oil on the exhaust manifolds making a smell and the rubber on the spark plug leads getting eaten away by the oil (this takes a long time to happen). Definitely 110% recommend replacing the rocker cover gaskets, spark plug tube seals and camshaft o-rings though. Poor maintenance usually means a poor performing car!

Besides, you only spent $6000 for a car. Can't expect the world. All second hand cars need work, especially ones nearing 10 years in age. The only difference between cars, is the level of work required.

Eh this is no biggie. Don't beat yourself up over it. Few people would've probably noticed and besides, it's hardly a big problem. In-fact many owners don't even bother to replace the gaskets and have the oil cake on 2" thick. If you really didnt care you could just about get away with it, even for 15,000km service intervals. Only issue really would be burning oil on the exhaust manifolds making a smell and the rubber on the spark plug leads getting eaten away by the oil (this takes a long time to happen). Definitely 110% recommend replacing the rocker cover gaskets, spark plug tube seals and camshaft o-rings though. Poor maintenance usually means a poor performing car!

Besides, you only spent $6000 for a car. Can't expect the world. All second hand cars need work, especially ones nearing 10 years in age. The only difference between cars, is the level of work required.

Thanks PI - I'm a bit of a fanatic I guess for wanting a sound car. Especially because the TP that we are now wrecking had an oil leak that was tracked to being a crack in the transmission body. Wife had to always top-up the tranny or she was left with no drive on occasion.

I didn't expect perfection - after all it's done 116,000, but would prefer no leaks. Really, really hoping it's just the gaskets and seals - don't like the idea of anything bigger! :kb:

Steve

Definitely 110% recommend replacing the rocker cover gaskets, spark plug tube seals and camshaft o-rings though.

Any of you versatile guys have a diagram of the block that shows the location of the camshaft seals?

Steve

Behind the camshaft sprockets/gears. Timing belt and camshaft sprocket/gears need to be removed to replace them.

Timing belt and camshaft sprocket/gears need to be removed to replace them.

Thanks amm; looks like it will have to wait until the Timing belt gets done (asap).

Steve

The camshaft o-ring that i'm taking about is not on the timing belt side - its on the battery/thermostat/gearbox side of the engine. I'll try and get a picture up for you this afternoon.

And like I said, if the only problem you have is the rocker cover gaskets and this o-ring, then you're doing very well for a 10 year old car that barely cost $6,000. This car is a world away from the TP but it will need some work in repairs. It's just how old cars are. If you don't want a car with problems then you need to buy newer and spend more unfortunately. But this small issue is hardly something to worry about. Most cars around 10-15 years start leaking oil from somewhere.

The camshaft o-ring that i'm taking about is not on the timing belt side - its on the battery/thermostat/gearbox side of the engine. I'll try and get a picture up for you this afternoon.

Thanks MagnaP.I. - appreciate it! What would we do without you and guys like you?

Steve

Thingies behind the cam sprockets mentioned are proper oil seals, they can leak too.

As above, with a 10 year old Magna you can pretty much expect to need to change a few seals and gaskets to get it oil tight. If you are really lucky the precious owner may have attended to them.

Once you have these sorted, then you can start worrying about drive shaft and steering rack boots.

Most of us can probably predict at what km various bits on the 3.5L will give trouble. lol

The camshaft o-ring that i'm taking about is not on the timing belt side - its on the battery/thermostat/gearbox side of the engine. I'll try and get a picture up for you this afternoon.

Do you mean the one covered by the plate? I really should replace mine as some point.. lol. Good thing I took the pic, I noticed my front rocker cover gasket was seeping from the front corner. Fixed now, needless to say :)

http://imageshack.us/a/img856/6576/20130126144135a.jpg

Yep that's the one. I was just about to upload my picture!

The o-ring is like $3 from mitsubishi. Getting to the o-ring is the expensive part because of the top bolt.

There's an old trick, where you undo the bolt until it hits the thermostat housing, then cut the head off and twist the bottom part of the bolt to get the entire thing out. Then with the new bolt, you shave a corner of the head off (around 2mm is enough) at an angle and slip it in past the thermostat housing. I should post a up to show my bolt looks like. I haven't had a leak from that o-ring yet. Rather my rocker cover gaskets are leaking again (replaced them 20,000kms ago). Darn synthetic oil loves to find the smallest of openings. The rubber from the gasket may also be really poor.

Like I said, as long as you do regular servicing, you could just about ignore the oil leak. Very little amount of oil flows out. Personally, I'd would not recommend skipping to replace it, but it can be done if money is tight.

If mine leaks, I'd say its a very slight weep at worst. I just degrease the area and monitor it at every oil change until it shows signs of worsening.

Rather my rocker cover gaskets are leaking again (replaced them 20,000kms ago). Darn synthetic oil loves to find the smallest of openings. The rubber from the gasket may also be really poor.

Hey P.I.

Interestingly I was talking to one of our Line Mechanics at work last night; accidentally ended up discussing leaks on engines. He was immediately onto rocker covers as the biggest source of leaks under-car, whether it be V6's or V8's he had seen a lot of them - and that was without me mentioning anything.

His practice is to use Silastic to make the gasket in-situ. I've used that years back on m/cycle engine rebuilds. Is that what you're saying that you do also?

Steve

Hey P.I.

Interestingly I was talking to one of our Line Mechanics at work last night; accidentally ended up discussing leaks on engines. He was immediately onto rocker covers as the biggest source of leaks under-car, whether it be V6's or V8's he had seen a lot of them - and that was without me mentioning anything.

His practice is to use Silastic to make the gasket in-situ. I've used that years back on m/cycle engine rebuilds. Is that what you're saying that you do also?

Steve

Hi mate,

Like I said, rocker cover leaks are no big deal and very common. ;) After 10 years of use and abuse it's just about expected. Few cars don't give way on the gaskets after so many years of use!

Personally, I've used Permatex Aviation grade form-a-gasket to better seal the gasket to the block with little success. Sythethic oil is thinner and easily seaps out of the smallest cracks/openings. I've tried to use the sealant to stop it from flowing, but I've found the permatex sealant is very sticky and dries hard. Will probably use a permatex gasket maker next time. From what I gather, Silicone and rubber don't generally mix too well with the acid in the silicone being able to eat through the rubber.

I've used ACL gaskets and I've found that they've started to let the oil through again. Not too sure why to be honest but either the gasket is poor quality and/or my workmanship with rocker gaskets is not up to scratch.

The reason is because you have not formed the rocker cover properly, I sell so many of the ACL kits and fit them too, when fitted correctly won't leak again any faster than genuine

I don't use sealant and I curse those who do as it is generally me who cleans up the mess later

Check where the distributor mates to the cylinder head. Just recently fix my TW which displayed oil where the block and trans mates. Thought the worst and expecting rear main. The oil ran from underneath the dist, over the gearbox housing, pooled then ended up running to that joint and dripping.

MD619990 Distributor O-Ring

Replaced that o-ring near the thermostat a while back. The thrust plate one. Was able to rotate the plate by tapping it around. Gained just enough room to slide that captured bolt out of there.