View Full Version : 4G69 turbo
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:11 PM
Hi, guys! In this topic, I want to tell you about the turbo project. You may ask: "And how is supercharger?" I will answer. Supercharger very noisy. To me this is not much like it. Once on the American forum Galants, John (z80) said to me, make it the turbo. I think it's time to do it. I want to tell you how it's done, how to do a calculation and selection of components. I want to remind you, I don't know English, so I write through the electronic translator. Don't blame much, if something is not clear, you'd better ask about it. So, let's begin...
http://s017.radikal.ru/i427/1302/bd/551516551f11.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:12 PM
Many tuners built turbo, then calculated power and etc. However, this is not the right approach. Correctly first, calculate, and then to build the engine. There are a few simple points.
1) Initial settings. (what we have before construction)
2) the Desired result (the one that we want to get)
3) Calculation (we consider the air, fuel, power etc.)
4) Selection of the components (turbine, parts, etc.)
5) Installation (actually Assembly)
6) setup (ECU, pressure, fuel, etc.)
That's it for this scheme will work.
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:13 PM
1)Initial settings. So, what we have? Engine code: 4G69
Size: 2.4 L (2378 QC)
Cylinder: 87 mm
Stroke: 100 mm
Power: 160 HP. (117 kW) at 5750 rpm. with 158 ft·lbf (215 N·m) at 4000 rpm.
Compression ratio : 9,5
MFI fuel injection,
4 valves per cylinder.
Valves without the hydro-compensators.
Automatic gearbox F4A4B.
For the beginning of these parameters are sufficient.
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:14 PM
2) the Desired result.
Oh, this item is always causes a lot of disputes. the voices of the people hundreds of horsepower. But not all people understand that they can use them. You can build any engine. And 400, and 500, and 1000 HP, etc.
However, any increase shall entail significant spending. This relates primarily to the engine itself. Need to strengthen the pistons, rods, gear box, transmission, etc. The total amount of construction is increasing to infinity. Therefore, we must descend from the heavens to the earth and calculate what you can do.
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:15 PM
If you leave the stock parts, we can boldly say - 100 HP per liter volume. Go back to step 1. The volume of 2378cc. Thus, the safe capacity will reach 238 hp. A further increase will require strengthening of the engine and the transmission.
However, if the purpose of the project is to leave all part of the stock, then there is another option. This is the performance of the injectors. There are formulas for calculating the performance. They take into account the number of cylinders, pressure fuel pump, duty cycle,the losses of fuel (B.S.F.C.). However, I want to offer another, more simple way.
If the duty cycle is equal to 90%, fuel rail pressure of 3 bar.
The power can be calculated as: the Size of the injector : 5.25 x number of cylinders.
Stock size 4G69 injector = 275 cc.
275 : 5.25 x 4 = 209.5
Thus, the stock injectors, will be able to secure the capacity of 210 HP.
That is, if you take the injectors for example from 6G75 = 305cc. 305 : 5.25 x 4 = 232 HP.
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:16 PM
You think 210 HP is very little? Believe me, it will be a very fast car. Is much faster than a stock V6. Because it is important not only power as such. We must take into account the weight of the vehicle and a gear ratio gearbox. I stopped at the power of 210 HP.
Now you need to make the calculation of the air.
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:20 PM
You first need to calculate basic air flow N/A. This is done by the formula.
Basic air flow = V x rpm x 0.5 x E / 1000000
where, V - volume (cc), rpm - (6000) 0.5 - of 0.5 means that the four-stroke engine air in the cylinder comes only at the time of one turnover of the two. E - filling ratio (0.85). The number of 1000000 serves to convert cc to cubic meters.
2378 x 6000 x 0.5 x 0.85 /1000000 = 6.06 m3/min
This is a basic air flow N/A 4G69 MIVEC engine. Remember this number.
filling ratio for motors without systems (MIVEC, VTEC, VVTi) = 0.8
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:20 PM
Now we need to calculate the required pressure. To do this, we use the formula.
Rated power = the initial power x (the boost pressure /atmospheric pressure)
Make an equation.
210 = 160 x ( X / 1 bar)
210 = 160 x X
X = 210 / 160
X = 1.31bar (absolute pressure = atmospheric pressure + boost pressure
For achievement of the power 210 hp need to 0.31 bar (4.5 psi) boost pressure
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:21 PM
The next step is the calculation of the air flow with the turbocharged. This is done by the formula
air flow turbo = boost pressure x basic air flow
1.31 x 6.06 = 7.94 m3/min
To convert m3/min to a more correct term kg/min, m3/min should be multiplied by the density of the air at a height of geographic location (sorry, inscriptions in Russian)
http://i027.radikal.ru/1206/31/1a9886928f55.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:22 PM
Now you can choose a turbocharger. We know the air flow. In the specification of turbochargers is, the parameter of consumption. It is expressed - kg per second. The weight of air per minute / 60 seconds = supply air (It is possible for English it sounds different)
7.94 / 60 = 0.13 kg per second
Now I take the directory and find the desired me turbocharger
I would like to say that in the metric system measure the speed of the flow kg/s. However, in the directories for the turbo this parameter is specified as lb/min. If you know of pressure and air flow (mass), you can find the turbine. To do this, open directory, for example Garrett Products | Turbochargers (http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/turbochargers)
Now you need to select the turbocharger. I translated metric values its turbo. 0.13 kg/s = 17.2lb/min. As you remember absolute pressure = 1.31 bar
Open performance map. We need to find a compressor to the intersection of lines air flow (17.2lb/min) and pressure (1.31 bar), were in the center of the oval.
Thus, if I bought Garrett, then I would chose GT2560R.
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:23 PM
Even some of the members American forums asked me to calculate the engine 6G75MIVEC , to get the 400 HP. This will be retained without change gearbox. I have made a calculation.
Pressure 0.53 bar (7.7psi), Absolute pressure 1.53 bar
Injectors 6 x 360cc
Basic air flow 9.76 kg/min (21.52 lb/min)
Air consumption with the turbo 14.93 kg/min (32.92 lb/min)
Thus, if 1 turbocharger, the optimal choice of GT3582R 1.06A/R
For the application of twin turbo, the optimal choice of 2 turbochargers GT2252
I want to say, the pressure is higher 6psi, requires the use of the cooler. The cooler will take away a portion of the pressure, so when choosing a chargers, pressure is slightly higher than estimated
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:24 PM
This is a very small compressor. This will avoid the lag. It occupies very little space.
http://s019.radikal.ru/i634/1206/18/47ce5089cb33.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
http://i011.radikal.ru/1206/ee/ecc37f8ba06c.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
http://s019.radikal.ru/i644/1206/bd/1fcac0f2164d.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:25 PM
There is one more option. Compression ratio. The boost pressure is very low. So no change in the engine does not have to. However, I want to give a formula for the calculation.
the total compression ratio = compression ratio + (boost pressure) in square
9.5 + (0.31x0.31) = 9.6
As you can see, nothing will not need to change.
if you calculates high boost pressure, for example 1.5 bar (21psi)
9.5 + (1.5x1.5) = 11.75
in this case it is necessary to reduce the CR.
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:26 PM
Turbocharger always have the map. You can see the flow of air on the map. Each charger has its own bandwidth. That is, you can't raise the pressure indefinitely. For example, look at this map. On the left side of the chart, the air flow, pressure from below. As you can see, after 2 bar, the flow is not increased.
http://s006.radikal.ru/i213/1302/a9/9cf61fe5f0a5.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:27 PM
I want to tell you to do as a new exhaust manifold. I bought the elbows and tees from heat-resistant steel (wall thickness 4 mm) And also cut industrial laser 3 parts (12 mm thickness)
http://s018.radikal.ru/i527/1207/ce/bd216195bbbb.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
To work will require argon welding.
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:28 PM
I take tees and doing customized.
http://s60.radikal.ru/i168/1207/26/247fb96ba2f0.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
Each part of the individual. Therefore, folded the puzzle of the parts are welded argon environment.
http://s017.radikal.ru/i417/1207/91/4a142434028b.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:29 PM
The next stage, to make the flange to the turbocharger. This is done from the tee. You need to cut the middle part of the exhaust manifold.
http://s017.radikal.ru/i420/1207/e8/d3a1efd17d54.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
http://s008.radikal.ru/i303/1207/da/71e39ed5d934.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
http://s017.radikal.ru/i404/1207/c2/19c8c9c1d1cf.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:30 PM
You can now clear the welding seams.
http://s018.radikal.ru/i520/1207/8e/c9ac6d2c0ab3.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
And weld flanges. Seams to impose from the inside.
http://s019.radikal.ru/i602/1207/29/076dead7f0ea.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
http://i016.radikal.ru/1207/45/0d451d544e13.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
http://s019.radikal.ru/i629/1207/11/0e745b74434f.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:32 PM
I later refused from the wastegate valve. But in the photo he is.
http://s53.radikal.ru/i142/1207/d6/d1667cdef51c.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
http://s004.radikal.ru/i208/1207/2c/2a7b411be88e.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
http://i080.radikal.ru/1207/5c/a6ed2da21938.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:35 PM
I graduated from the welding work. Now we must make the view. For this we need to use sand blasting. Further milling planes.
http://s014.radikal.ru/i326/1207/00/f4da529885dc.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
http://s47.radikal.ru/i116/1207/3a/c68bd8fd6b9a.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:35 PM
After sandblasting parts look like this
http://s017.radikal.ru/i408/1207/20/01d09af1c21c.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
http://s019.radikal.ru/i623/1207/2f/72cf4c859d4f.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:36 PM
The next step. Part of the warm up up to 300 C. And dipped in a special acid solution. This gives protection of metal from corrosion and dark in color.
http://s15.radikal.ru/i189/1207/90/6059835ef9e2.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
http://s45.radikal.ru/i110/1207/68/741ec2beb700.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:37 PM
Now you can mill the surface.
http://s018.radikal.ru/i503/1207/a2/d283adb7075f.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
Laser logo.
http://s09.radikal.ru/i182/1207/73/402ea77c4254.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:38 PM
I wanted it to look like. But then I did on another, but about this later.
http://s11.radikal.ru/i183/1208/83/d04385d9e9cf.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:38 PM
I received a parcel. Immediately and set intercoooler.
http://s017.radikal.ru/i419/1209/dd/09bb2d760aad.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
http://s017.radikal.ru/i402/1209/2d/c99ecb88f88e.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
http://s017.radikal.ru/i402/1209/45/19ba2aba26df.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:40 PM
But I wanted more. New forged pistons. Now not afraid of 400 HP inflate.
http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1351260187/daf7d979/1110393_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/daf7d9791110393.html)
http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1351260251/9f78c3bb/1110413_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/9f78c3bb1110413.html)
http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1351260288/f9619627/1110447_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/f96196271110447.html)
http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1351260330/1041857d/1110469_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/1041857d1110469.html)
http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1351260368/c143c8f3/1110477_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/c143c8f31110477.html)
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:40 PM
And a new turbo Garrett 1752 S.
http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1351261153/645e6282/1110523_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/645e62821110523.html)
http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1351261194/098718f7/1110528_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/098718f71110528.html)
http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1351261329/613be81f/1110538_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/613be81f1110538.html)
http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1351261240/3a48ba42/1110530_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/3a48ba421110530.html)
http://images.vfl.ru/ii/1351261283/ca3627b2/1110537_m.jpg (http://vfl.ru/fotos/ca3627b21110537.html)
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:41 PM
For the time while there was a turbo project, I got 5 orders for manufacturing.
So did just 5 pieces of exhaust. I refused slots for O2 sensors. I disabled them in the ECU.
Now 5 sets of exhaust ready.
http://i032.radikal.ru/1212/6b/6f6376834475.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
http://s019.radikal.ru/i633/1212/d8/6beed2497a83.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:41 PM
I gathered the entire set. Now it's fully working. Now you have to go to the torque stand. To do the firmware. I want to make two firmware. 1) For stock pistons of 210-220 HP. 2) For forged pistons 280-300 HP.
http://s019.radikal.ru/i621/1212/2b/38d9f014be23.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:43 PM
I want to show the video. Do not judge too strictly. This is the test program for the ECU. In Russia winter, so have narrow winter wheels. From the sound of it slipping wheels up to 110 - 120 km/h.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzOvLGcRaVA
In the next few days I will finish the project. Now listen to your questions and comments.
stayer
20-02-2013, 06:54 PM
Perhaps this message needs to be moved to a separate topic. I can reflash ECU Bosch for 380 (And any ECU Mitsi from 2005 and younger). However, it is necessary to send the ECU in Russia. It costs $ 400 without cost of delivery.
texacola
20-02-2013, 07:07 PM
Don't know about anyone else but the beautiful engineering work you did on those inlets gave me wood and I love the acceleration, that's exciting. Thanks for sharing stayer!
stayer
20-02-2013, 07:10 PM
In fact, this is only a test version. Pressure 0.4 bar (7psi). The results 1 bar (14psi) will be later.
stayer
20-06-2014, 07:09 PM
Long time since I wrote in this thread. I wanted to write about the results. All my calculations at the beginning of the topic was confirmed.
so looks like under the hood.
http://s003.radikal.ru/i204/1405/74/51f4397803c6.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
Here is the last measurement.
http://i031.radikal.ru/1406/5d/c21ea8029695.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
205HP 420Nm.
Torque is impressive. It is more than for 6G75mivec(350Nm) and stock Evo X (366Nm).
The car is accelerating with any speed. Very, very rapid acceleration. At the beginning of the topic I wrote that it will be much faster than GT. Believe me, it is.
As confirmed by my calculations. The nozzles can't give more than 209 hp.
The graph it can be seen. Curve lambda after 5800 rpm injectors stop adding fuel.
Curve turbo will be fixed when it comes electronic boost controller.
At the beginning of the topic I wrote that it will be much faster than GT. Believe me, it is.
.
GT is 700Nm at the wheels and 270kw (361hp) at the wheels at 16psi
Will you get that with your 4g69?
Rory_newton
20-06-2014, 08:35 PM
Wow, well done mate, some quality work there!!
stayer
21-06-2014, 12:58 AM
GT is 700Nm at the wheels and 270kw (361hp) at the wheels at 16psi
Will you get that with your 4g69?
I meant stock car GT.
stayer
16-05-2015, 11:31 AM
At the moment the project is finished. In this configuration (Garrett 1752, stock injectors) no more work will be performed. Eventually you can see on the chart the power and torque.
http://s003.radikal.ru/i202/1504/2b/7152640de364.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
214 hp, 405 Nm torque. However, the graph shows that the turbocharger cannot provide the pressure after 4000 rpm. The pressure level decreases after 4000 rpm. But the car starts well enough.
04.25.15. in Moscow hosted a meeting of owners GALANT 9.
There were a lot of cars. I put the car in start vs. 3.8 GTS (230hp)
http://s020.radikal.ru/i704/1504/07/ae06ca776247.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
I was driving on wet roads, so we lost 1 body. However, in the next race we swapped and I already won.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MldKUhhaPlE
stayer
16-05-2015, 11:32 AM
Car rides at the level of 3.8 GTS.
http://i016.radikal.ru/1504/ae/0b9d30e029d6.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
Some more pictures from the meeting Galant owners.
http://s020.radikal.ru/i713/1504/a5/2591bacbb910.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
http://s50.radikal.ru/i130/1504/7e/c554f835f07b.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
http://s020.radikal.ru/i707/1504/b9/ca1f7ed98569.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
I'm bald in the center.
http://s013.radikal.ru/i322/1504/9c/6ff79a2e6248.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
http://s020.radikal.ru/i708/1504/dd/00be39988878.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
And finally a little positive.
http://s51.radikal.ru/i131/1504/c2/9ce8d5eb7b44.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
Powered by vBulletin™ Version 4.0.3 Copyright © 2016 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.